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Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16
Tiger_disk_4

Hello all,

Trying to install Tiger on my rescued Quicksilver 2002. I have burned 3 of 4 cds however disk 4 has failed 3 times with media error, thus, 3 more cd blanks in the trash from holding tongue in different positions;) The posted name does not match the downloaded name if this maters and downloaded from both sites listed.

Also, the update disk is larger than a 700mb CD, was this intended for CD or just a collection?
Can the update use the USB port from stick? Don't think the QS has original combo drive or whatever, dvd failed to read or burnt wrong from son's '07 macbook.

Not up on the QS as I'm pc guy with last 8.1 OS mac 30 years ago. TIA!

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Maximum R.I.S.C.'s picture
Joined: 2017 Oct 18

Doing this from another Mac (via Firewire) is so much easier. Can doing it for you for $10 + shipping.

Maximum R.I.S.C.'s picture
Joined: 2017 Oct 18

P.S. It IS possible to install from USB (via Open Firmware - have done it on a PowerBook), but it is REALLY complicated. Also, unless you have a USB2 PCI-card, it will take days to install.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

And how do I do this with corrupted disk?...for $10? Really? But yes need to read about Firewire disk mode...

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

Please have disk #4 marked unusable if indeed corrupted. Thanks!

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

I can't see anything wrong with Tiger CD4.toast.
I did not try to install the OS with the four CD set though. As there are only printer driver packages on CD 4, it should be possible to opt out when the other stuff is through.
I´ll try to install from the four CDs the next days, if nobody beats me.

Shall I send the four CDs by snail mail?
Will take some time from Germany, maybe someone closer to you does his good deed of the day. Wink

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

I cannot find a problem burning disk 4 of Tiger as downloaded from this page. It burns to CD, OK for me. Maybe your DL or extraction from the zip is at fault.

BTW, I used ImgBurn to burn it to CD OK (you're a PC guy right?) Just rename the .toast to .iso and use ImgBurn to do the rest.

Also, the additional update disk is a combo of released updates for Tiger, it's not intended for burning to CD, rather, its mounted and run from your Mac after you install Tiger to it. Yes you can mount this from a USB stick if you wish - but a QuickSilver with USB 1.1.... its going to take a while.

SkyCapt's picture
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Joined: 2017 Jan 11

For the record, the full name is "FireWire: Target Disk Mode", it could help you find info...

QuickSilver is PowerMac G4, easy flip down case and easy access to the drive units. I seldom see it recommended that anyone just install OSX on another computer where it is happenin', then physically transfer the drive unit to the troubled computer/QuickSilver in your case. Maybe you can even avoid moving the hardware, by imaging the fresh installation and then restoring that image on the computer you want. I've done these things, even installed Leopard/Tiger Server Universal editions on PPC and moved/restored them to intel Macs. If there are little quirks like special drivers missing then the issues are easy to identify and typically can be patched up.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

Thanks all, I really appreciate the different scenarios. The old QS drive is single partition with 10.3 and 9.2 on it. The OS X boot has become corrupted since dragging the thing home 4 days ago.

I upgraded sons '07 macbook to 4g ram, partitioned an old 500g drive then installed Snow and Tiger with clean installs in each partition with respective DVD. Me bad Wink Runs great!

The QS is kicking my butt without all the proper tools and lack of OSX smarts. My old mac 8.6 stuff is long gone except for few disks and a working Mac SE using Zip drive for gone scsi drive.

So, the QS will be a bridge mac when all figured out. Lol, this won't work with that and vise versa, thank stars for this site and your support!

I downloaded "disk 4" from another site and burned fine; file spec looked identical. This was the fourth attempt. The "Disk 1" boots QS, the DVD version it spit out so DVD or format bad. At least the cd's are easy if not glacial.

Using "FireWire: Target Disk Mode" (thanks!) will this allows upgrading only or booting the QS?

"BTW, I used ImgBurn to burn it to CD OK (you're a PC guy right?) Just rename the .toast to .iso and use ImgBurn to do the rest." Thanks!, ole UKLightning was a good software author, still use his software.

I have the $10 IDE to sata bridge in the mail. This will allow big partitions, newer drives and clean install of Tiger and 9..well that's my plan Wink So will be easy(er) to just pull drive and avoid slow IO, no?

All suggestions welcome, thanks for reading.

Maximum R.I.S.C.'s picture
Joined: 2017 Oct 18

I actually would just clone my normal customer build image over to it (includes OS9) happy to help if you want - just email me avalbrec (@) gmail (.) com if interested.

Honestly the installer + updates takes a lot longer.

The ideal configuration is to partition the drive so you have the system in one (around 50GB is usually great unless you want to install a ton - can be adjusted to suit), and then have a big partition with general storage so if you ever have to do a rebuild it won't loose your data - if you setup Carbon Copy Cloner, it can even be backing up your system daily. I usually also do a stripped-down (like 2GB) recovery build of Tiger on a third partition in case you ever have to restore from your backup so you never need a disk. Great too if you have to do a data-recovery of an accidentally-deleted item.

os9er's picture
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Joined: 2013 Nov 15

the DVD version it spit out so DVD or format bad

I've discovered that this is a fairly common issue on Macs from that era with a CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive. The CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive on my Titanium PowerBook G4 will spit out a DVD if it's a modern, home-burned disc; in other words, for some reason it can't read the disc's formatting, so it ejects the disc after a few seconds of trying. It works fine with the OS X Tiger DVDs I have, which came from an old Mac Mini G4 that I no longer have; however, give it a brand-new, freshly burned DVD-R and the drive can't read it at all. On my machine, it doesn't even come up with a warning saying that the disc was unreadable - just tries to read it for a few seconds, then spits it out.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

Max, nice reading from guys who has the experience working with the newer Macs. I clone most of my PC builds so yes!

The mention WD 80 gig deteriorated further today where os 9 would barely boot. I finish verify on the 4 Tiger CDs then ran First Aid on my only boot disk, CD1. Extension errors (?) with drive failing to repair or verify. I felt like old Win 95 days, lol.

Crossing fingers I got good reformat and verify. I'm now on Disk 3 with countless printer installs with disk 4 next. If I get good install, then OS9 on the second partition tomorrow. I will have to check with you on dumping unneeded files. I'll be braver when I get newer sata options when bridge arrives.

Thx

SkyCapt's picture
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Joined: 2017 Jan 11

Will an IDE adaptor give you >128GB support if u don't already have it? According to this page, some QS have support ready-made, some do not:
macos9lives

You'd get much better performance with a SATA-PCI card (you're QS IDE is just 66 not the best), probably get instant "large" drive support, I'm pessimistic an IDE adaptor can effect the "48-bit LBA" (logical block addressing) needed for drives >128GB.

Partitions, the more the merrier. Two Tigers is the best when anything goes wrong with one. Tiger can erase (full reset) partitions of the boot drive, Panther won't. You can run Leopard on fast QS or any QS if u'r determined.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

SkyCapt, I would love to have the PCI version. Seems that the good ones are gone. You got one for sale?

I purchased the sata bridge from the advice of macos9lives after checking my main board serials. Most say I will just saturate the IDE from the sata drive and is bootable. I've looked for several pci solutions so picked the $10 bridge to get away from old IDE drives.

Anyway, had to rename Tiger CD4 to Disk 4 or installer has hissy fit. Thanks again for heads up. Tiger and OS9 lives Wink The adapter should be here Monday so will report back whether is crashes and burns or not.

Maximum R.I.S.C.'s picture
Joined: 2017 Oct 18

You have to be CAREFUL. G4 PCI slots are funky and a lot of ones that say they work (like Acard) don't.

The most reliable are Sonnet Temp TSATA and FirmTek/Seritek (Both are made by Firmtek).
I have both in my G4 and they ROCK. The QS has a ATA66 for hard-drives and this would be in practice twice as fast. And if you have two drives on the same card, it can actually assist transfer speeds (much faster than normally possible across 2 PCI slots). They are usually 2-SATA or 2eSATA, but sometimes you run across the rare one that has two of each.

Works GREAT with OS9 as well.

They look like these:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/438457-REG/Sonnet_TSATA_Tempo_Ser...

https://barefeats.com/hard45.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520817-REG/FirmTek_SATA_1S2_SeriT...

https://barefeats.com/hard49.html

Have tried a LOT of cards and come up zero accept for these. If you save a search on eBay, will probably run into one in about 2 months.

Search terms to use are: "Sonnet Tempo TSATA PCI -PCIe" or Firmtek Seritek PCI SATA -PCIe" You will still see a few PCI Express cards come up but much fewer.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

Thanks Max, Yes, hopefully one will show up. Are you running OS9lives on a QS2002 by chance?

Tiger is fine but OS9 starts having l-o-n-g boots, black screen or bombs. This is in own partition, installed 3 times. I'll look around for the original disks for this machine to see if factory install has same issue with 9. Pram reset, holding down shift fails. Could be something odd about old drive so plan to change that out for os only install. PC has ruined me Wink

Maximum R.I.S.C.'s picture
Joined: 2017 Oct 18

I'm running on an MDD with the above cards.

The good news with OS9 is when it starts acting that way, in addition to the normal "Rebuilding of the Desktop File", there are a handful of files you can replace with fresh copies (from OSX) and usually be up and running fine. I used to use DiskWarrior, but OS9 is actually really unstable compared to earlier versions.
Setup an Applescript to replace these and when it gets pissy I swap the following files with fresh ones from Tiger (all are in the 'System Folder"):
Classic
Classic Support
Classic Support UI
Finder
Login
Mac OS ROM
Panels
System
System Resorces

Honestly if you can live without Classic support in Tiger and use OS 8.6, you are better off for it.

Also, the Root-Level OS9 Drivers get borked sometimes. If the above doesn't fix it, then copying everything off and re partitioning (re-adding OS9 Drivers) Have also heard Disk Setup from OS9 itself (on a bootup disc) can refresh these drivers, but I've never tried it. Considering that OS9 fragments like old Windows, and has so much funkiness going on, it's best left on it's own hard drive.

Lastly, if you have an app that appears damaged, and you can't reinstall it into OS9, Norton Utilities has proven (from my experience) to fix a lot of things that even DiskWarrior couldn't.

SkyCapt's picture
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Joined: 2017 Jan 11

Hi, i'm running MDD2003 with all OS 9.2.1 thru 9.2.2 and 10.2.7 thru 10.5.8 and a pair of SATA-PCI cards. Tiger's the best for combined performance plus reliability, on G4.

Wanted to add that OS9 didn't come bundled with Tiger installers, the OS9 System Folder had to be manually introduced, or carried over from a Panther volume being updated to Tiger. Depending on where the OS9 folder was sourced from, it may contain myriad version numbers of the files you mentioned. It's clear to me you intend to grab the OSX-updated versions, which must first be auto-generated by the "OSX Classic Updater" accomplished by Start-ing Classic Environment Mode at least once from within the version of OSX whose files you intend to capture. Changes to these and other files is exactly what is meant when/if starting Classic warns us that "Classic needs to update files in [System Folder] on [volume name]" It generates a logfile "System Folder/Classic Update Log.txt". notice how the Classic Update warning pane states these updates don't affect bootable OS9 just classic emulation, what a crazy lie Apple's statement is!

I've used "Drive Setup" to refresh the partitioned drivers (see the OSX Terminal command "diskutil list" to view partitions). Various versions of Drive Setup write various versions (in the 3.2.0 thru 3.3.0 range) of the driver software. It might be the drive must be formatted by pre-OSX to do this, because "OS9 Disk Driver" partitions created by OSX (v"3.3.0" constantly) have different partition-sizes than those made by Classic OS. Or, the sizes variation might not matter but I wasn't going to test that out... I recall it being difficult to get the driver partition version numbers, but by running various older versions of Drive Setup and 'threatening' to refresh, it was possible to get the partition version numbers.

Also if u ever run Classic Mac OS installers for any reason, they usually come with a Default Setting which causes "refresh" of the disk drivers, and since your partitions could be made by OSX or be a version mismatch, you'll probably want to be sure to go select options and uncheck this when using very old installers.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

Max, the 2002 QS can run 8.6? Everything read says I need 9.22, and yes, really buggy with my older stuff. If I can use 8.6...

BTW, 9 now(!) running very good. Multiple initial issues, version, who formatted drive and the given old single cable ADM dragging down Power Supply during the rez changes while booting.

Ah, the old game crashes are all coming back to me...

For anyone who cannot find the better sata boards, I'm totally wow on this $10 board shipped. Big improvement over 30 (?) year old ide drive, bootable, and keeps your slots free if needed.
This maxes the at66 across whole drive. I'm using old hitachi 750G 7k drive.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=email&A=details&Q=&sk...

Maximum R.I.S.C.'s picture
Joined: 2017 Oct 18

P.S. the Question Mark is very common when the internal battery has gone dead. PRAM can't keep track of the "Blessed" system you are trying to get too. Also peripherals like mice, keyboards and sound will go bonkers. Zapping the PRAM (start with Option+Command+P+R -> till hearing two gongs), helps, but you will need to do it every few days till the battery is changed. Also, after replacing the battery, you usually need to reset the PSU by finding the little black or grey button on the Logic-Board and holding it for 20 seconds or so while unplugged. Unlike a PC, OpenFirmware is very autonomous from the system (like Breathing is to us), and can really mess things up when it's not getting reliable power.

SkyCapt's picture
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Joined: 2017 Jan 11

Breathing, good analogy. PRAM reset, PMU reset, and clock battery - like CPR for PPC macs.

I made an extension cord and plug for my Mirror Door's battery, now my battery sits on the tower floorpan so it cannot leak acid destroying the motherboard.

SkyCapt's picture
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Joined: 2017 Jan 11

Aren't we able to get the (generic) PeeCee editions of SATA-PCI cards, and flash the card ROMs (aka card-firmware) for use in Mac.

QS2002: sorry about your OS9 not booting whereas Tiger is. What kind of CPU is your PowerMac running on?

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

The dual 1Ghz. The original (as purchased) install ran it ok but with occasional ? before fully booting. That original "as bought" OSX install became corrupted. The 9lives boot cd works great, problem starts after 1 or 2nd reboot after install. Installed 3 times and formatted per instructions. So downloaded original cd set to try a hail mary install incase something was missed. Oh well Wink could be a flaky old IDE drive...or I have very finicky QS 2002.

Thx

SkyCapt's picture
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There were CPU upgrades which ran out-of-the-box under OSX but required installing a patch for OS9 compatibility. OEM dual 1GHz sounds awesome - actually, I don't know for sure by your wording if the CPU is original or upgraded... You must have L3 cache attached to it, older Macs and G5s do not have.

There might be two kinds of ? seen before booting, one generated by system Firmware, the other by early stages of booting OS9. My MDD firmware has a ? which means the declared startup volume is not found, and if this goes away automatically then it means a search for another bootable volume yielded one and it starts booting the alternative. If OS9 puts up the ? then it might be more serious. Did you try the 'original' OS9 reinstall a second time? I think 'OS9lives' install disc contains custom patchwork, no?

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

Original CPU, 2002. The ? goes away automatically then continues to boot into 9.

I just downloaded the install set for this model and year. I will try those tomorrow to see if anything changes.

The 'OS9lives' was installed three times back to back. Yes, custom patchwork stated on their site.

I'll post back, THX

SkyCapt's picture
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weird questionmark: 'Maximum R.I.S.C' is right the boot partition description is stored in nvram, part of system Firmware. U really might have a failing battery, u could check it with voltmeter, it's probably the 3.6VDC type and a little less is ok, but resurrecting computers that have been shelved a long time often exhibits bad batteries.

On my PowerMac MDD I can run with battery removed, better than if the battery is weak !

Are you using the OS' Startup Disk applets to set and switch booting between 9 & X, or are you using the option (or alt) key when powering up? I keep Startup Disk set for my fav partition, then I tolerate some ? at times by using the option key as much as I can to avoid using Startup Disk. This is because Startup Disk writes to nvram whereas the option key does not. It's said nvram will someday wear out dead due to excessive writes, and with how often I switch boot partitions I'm hoping my method helps prolong the life of system firmware.

SkyCapt's picture
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Hi, QuickSilver your latest msg is way up this page, I chose to continue down here.

U got OS9 running, gr8. "ADM cable ... power supply ..." sounds like ur talking about an ADC Monitor cable which yeah can draw up to 100Watts more by itself esp when first booted.

In ans to your question, 9.2.2 is what shipped and Apple of course discourages any less than 9.2.2 but I run 9.2.1 on my Mac newer than yours, and, the first edition QS2001 came with 9.2.1 so no doubt yer QS2002 can do OS 9.2.1 as well. It involves patching in various 9.2.2 software modules that you find you need or that offer better features. I find OS 9.2.1 quicker than 9.2.2, hopefully less buggy, and I use QuickTime 6.0.0 rather than the highest QT 6.0.3 because I find it faster too.

OS 8.6 I dunno. I couldn't make 9.1 boot on my MDD model.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

Hello SkyCapt,

Yes, curious as to Max's 8.6 comment. Patching? What I'm looking for is stability for some of my old games like Descent 3. At least I can get back into the game quicker if things blows up.

BTW, what is good program for disk images, for uploading or mounting to avoid cd? What would be a better Video card than my ATI Radeon 32 Rage 6? LOL, way behind the curve...

Thx!

MikeTomTom's picture
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what is good program for disk images, for uploading or mounting to avoid cd?

On a classic Mac OS 7.0 - 9.2.2? - Virtual CD/DVD-ROM Utility - the 3rd DL on that page:
virtual-cd-dvd-ute-10d3.sit (150.73 KB)

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

Thanks for that..and using the heck out of ImgBurn the last several nights!

SkyCapt's picture
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Joined: 2017 Jan 11

OS9 should cover you good. The biggest incompatibility falls between OSes 7 & 8, if you browse mg software pages you'll see a lot of 7-only, then 7-9 and 8-9 and 9-only as the industry evolved. There looks like little that runs under 8.n but not 9.n

Any vid card can beat that one. ATI Radeon 9000 (typically 64MB VRAM) is the last to be operable under both OS9 and OSX. You could run the highest AGP-8x class of cards, if you disable pins number A3 and A11 on the AGP card, and are willing to go OSX-only with card features. OS9 would still work in Video Safe mode (no OpenGL/no DVD Player/no GPU) - this is what I've been doing with an ATI Radeon 9600 (64MB) in my Power Mac G4, I find the OSX improvement worth the OS9 sacrifices tho your mileage may vary.

There exist dongles (and cables) to convert the ADC Port to HDMI via DVI, or to VGA. ATI 9000 and 9600 have two highdef monitor ports, your RAGE probably only the one ADC (plus maybe a pre-highdef port two).

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

The ADC port to HDMI dongle sounds interesting.

I'll look around for the ATI 9000, but need to check on actual current draw against my creaky old P.S., if any. 32MB should be enough for typical games of the period? I imagine gaming at 1080P would stress any of these old cards, and game settings, no?

ATI vs nVidia for this period in time? I want best drivers for 9; I would think? How much of a hit do you get running classic in Tiger vs straight OS 9? Or, your saying Tiger drivers far out perform old 9 drivers? My long gone B&W (Rev 1) with Voodoo card was my first gaming machine Wink

Thanks for your time!

SkyCapt's picture
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You may have to chain a pair of ADC to DVI and DVI to HDMI dongles, in order to go from ADC to HDMI.

32MB VRAM runs all OS9 software with resolutions of that period. My 64MB ATI 9600 does everything I want in OSX, this card's max res is 2560x1536 (i think) so the 1920x1200 I'm running comes close to its max.

My pref is ATI over nVidia, the nVidia drivers both 9 & X are bloaty whereas ATI is lean & mean. If you want OpenGL support while booted in OS9, the ATI 9000 is the best and last ATI card. I'm saying my ATI 9600 in OSX is so much better than ATI 9000 is in 9+X that it's worth it for me to abandon OpenGL in OS9 to have the 9600 (/9800 even better). I still boot into OS9 and do all kinds of 2D graphics.

OSX Classic is capable of performing faster than OS9, classic mode uses X extensions and I can run OpenGL on my ATI9600 in Classic whereas I don't have 9 drivers. But typically there is some slowdown, especially in OSX 10.3.0 and higher in which animation and sound coordination really slows down if the app ain't "Carbon". I use OSX 10.2.8 for super fast Classic and there I can run Tomb Raider III and IV non-Carbon at full speed. For an impressive Carbon game, see "Star Wars Episode I Pod-Racer" it runs at full speed in Tiger's Classic mode.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

I found the ATI 9000 for $10.87...tried to come down .87! I like how it has the two DVI ports, arriving tomorrow.

Anyone still using the old single cable Apple display? I understand it sucks 24vdc@ 3 amps out of the QS supply. Curious if I could use external 24vdc supply to unload the internal supply?

SkyCapt's picture
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2xDVI is not the Mac edition 9000, all Mac 9000s have 1DVI 1ADC (ADC is a slightly modified DVI, both are digital highdef). If the card isn't already Flashed for Mac, then it can and must be performed.

The 24V can be generated externally, that is what a DVI to ADC converter box does - not the same as ADC to DVI which is just a circuitless dongle. The card and mobo dont need the 24V line, only the ADC-styled display does.

I disabled my 24V on the Mobo to help extend the life of it. ADC monitors aren't that good by today's standards - low DPI, high current draw, and easily get borked pixels. Better off using a newer display that has a DVI/HDMI hookup.

Quicksilver 2002's picture
Joined: 2018 Mar 16

I received a brand new Mac Edition 9000 64 meg card. My bad description of the two ports. Works nice, after I swapped back cards to install the upgraded OS9 drivers, lol. The 9000 runs warmer than old Rage 6 but some of the old games look run a bit better with the updated specs. Good choice, thanks.

After reading more info I may go with external 24vdc supply, got several universal supplies from work. I liked the lower rez ADC display over the higher rez Samsung in use for the older games. I use my PC game box for anything needing serious horsepower, so I'm good. Thanks again