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BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2
Who the heck is running MacintoshRepository?

This is freaking mental! My very own recently released Startup is already available at MacintoshRepository.org. Who the hell is running this site?

Can't imagine this guy manually browsing the Garden, finding 'Startup' and thinking 'Hey! That would be a good addition to MacintoshRepository!'. So this has to be a bot crawling the Garden for new content.

Any chance of blocking this guy?

Did a crude bot trapping script for my own web site some years back. I'll gladly share it with the administrators of the Garden if it could be of some help.

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lilliputian's picture
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Joined: 2010 Jul 29

I wasn't around when it all went down, but from what I've gathered they were a former member of the garden who became dissatisfied with how this site was run and decided to make their own version. It was made initially by scraping the garden's content, but I didn't realize they were still doing it...

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

Aaah, that makes sense. Still not a cool thing to do, though.

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

Small correction there. Said member joined with full intention of doing what he did. His dissatisfaction was a distraction from his actions.

SkyCapt's picture
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Joined: 2017 Jan 11

http://macintoshgarden.org/forum/drain-other-web-site

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

To be fair; Anyone can download files freely from our servers and just as freely add them elsewhere.

If you do not approve of where they may resurface you are more than welcome to issue a take-down notice to that site (Please do - I would love to know how effective it could be).

That said, to kickstart his enterprise the creator of the MR did scrape this site completely before launching his own. But whether he is still doing the same, I don't know. As mentioned, anyone could be sharing files that get uploaded here to the MR or other location for any reason, not only the owner of the MR.

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

Dude! I'm developing for OS 9 in 2018. So I don't complain one bit about my applications being available to as broad of an audience as possible Wink

However, I did a quick search on MacintoshRepository and found all 3 of my uploads present under my developer name there - and it's like a month since I published them here at the Garden.

Don't argue with the fact that this might be manual labor, but tastes of an automated process to me. Just saying...

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

Dude Davie   Tongue

Duality's picture
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Joined: 2014 Mar 1

I imagine that the bot is scraping data from the ongoing RSS feed of "New Games" from none other than http://macintoshgarden.org/feed .

It happens to cover new forum topics, apps, and most new content outside of comments. It's how I keep tabs on new uploads on this site.

WhosIt.There's picture
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Joined: 2014 Aug 23

It would be relatively easy to test if it's purely bot driven. Simply create a few bogus app / game pages and leave them for a little while to see if / how quickly they show up on the selfish idiot's copy-cat site.

z750's picture
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Joined: 2016 Aug 26

I don't exactly see what the problem is here. The more places to preserve old software, the better.

Duality's picture
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Joined: 2014 Mar 1

Hmm. My two cents, not the OP. If it was just a mirror, that would be neat. But the required registration and the pushy donation banners when MG doesn't ask for a cent... seem... in poor taste for almost entirely leeched content?

Ends justifying the means, it's nice to have another home for these downloads. I just don't know if I like the management much.

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

+1

I know, I do not like its modus operandi, or "look and feel".

cbone's picture
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Joined: 2011 Sep 17

Here, here!

I wouldn't even mind their 'selfish intentions' of collecting funds off of 'our collaborative labor of love' if and when they would have the decency of attributing to their source(s) for their uploaded material.. even if they simply make a blanket mention somewhere, like on their footer, i.e., 'some of the uploads on our site come from other Mac software sites like the Macintosh Garden, The Web Archive, among others.' This way people won't be confused when they see our uploads on their site.

As I mentioned before, we are all gathering bits and bytes that we've preserved in some way, we're an outpost, much like an open online MUG that is here to help foster the use of Macintosh's earlier way of life and to honor the many authors of some of the most 'insanely great' software that programmers who dared to 'think different' back in the day lovingly wrote for the Macintosh.

Having said this, Bry is in his full right to demand some consideration from them for his original programming work since he's clearly available to be contacted by the MR, which can be inferred they obviously didn't do, before uploading his freeware onto their site.

Bry, I didn't check, but did you include any 'read me' documents with your software outlining the permissible actions concerning your software, i.e., it's freeware, shareware, cannot be uploaded without written permission from you, etc.? We know that we consider defunct companies' own licencing terms abandonware unless the authors contact the MG regarding their specific software titles. You do not fall into that category since you are an active software developer. However, you did upload it here (which makes perfect sense due to your intended audience) so it can be indirectly interpreted that you meant your software to fly online, which it has done so from the MG to the MR.

Going from memory, the Macintosh Repository does not mention the Macintosh Garden anywhere on their site at all, right? I'm also thinking about what might happen to them legally down the road since MG doesn't ask for any donations they way they do. This may not sit well with some of the original software authors, like Bry for example, compared to this site, you know? Some may call that bad karma that may bite them later down the road.

z750's picture
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Joined: 2016 Aug 26

Ah, I understand. I'm not on Macintosh Repository much, so I wouldn't know.

Yes, asking for money to upload other people's work, while another almost identical site asks for nothing at all to do the same task...

Bad legal karma indeed. Abandonware or not.

butterburger's picture
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Joined: 2014 Aug 16

N2000
The more places to preserve old software, the better.

Individuals (guests/visitors/users/patrons) can be do-gooders, interested in software preservation.

Ben/that-ben does not try hard to preserve software. Ey strives to amass software binaries/titles, not meta/supporting documents & information.

Macintosh Repository is that-ben's personal honeypot, where that-ben can decide what to keep and what to delete. Literally: ey had a fit of temper when ey encountered a software which did not work for em, so ey wanted to delete it, even while it was working for other users.

Macintosh Garden is a community. It answers questions, organises & collects, resolves quests, shares ideas, like communities do.

cbone
I wouldn't even mind their 'selfish intentions' …
if and when they would have the decency of attributing to their source(s) …
like on their footer

Time for that is nearing three years. I don't expect that-ben to improve.

Of course my words are mine, subjective. To those wanting help to feeling jolly about sharing and caring, remember Nina Paley's Credit is Due (The Attribution Song).

Attribution is a way to help your neighbor. You share not only the work, but information about the work that helps them pursue their own research and maybe find more works to enjoy. How much one is expected to help their neighbor is determined by (often unspoken) community standards. People who don’t help their neighbors tend to be disliked. And those who go out of their way to deceive and defraud their neighbors – i.e. plagiarists – are hated and shunned. Plagiarism doesn’t affect works – works don’t have feelings, and what is done to one copy has no effect on other copies. Plagiarism affects communities, and it is consideration for such that determines where attribution is appropriate.

cbone's picture
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Joined: 2011 Sep 17

An additional thought on this issue:

Would it be helpful in some measure if we borrowed from other allowed online practices and watermarked all of the Garden's screenshots? This way, I'd imagine that once they'd be pulled from this site they would 'automagically' show on any sites leaching from this one where their software uploads originated from.. just a thought Smile

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

In German we have a proverb "Huffy Liver Sausage" - hard to translate. Smile
The site owner of Mac Repo was mortally offended after we had a short thread here.
His cafish "vengeance" was ripping off anything he could from Macintoshgarden.
So far, so bad.
I dislike seeing my own screenshots from yonder over there, but got used to that.
The really bad about Mac Repo is, that people wanting to share old Mac titles may see that site first by simple mischance.
So some uploads e.g. from Germany got there instead of being hosted at Macintoshgarden. Sad
That way its almost impossible to ask the uploader for better pictures etc.

What could can be done:
- Keeping an eye on really new uploads over there.
- Pointing out in other forums when some software is mentioned with Mac Repo context, that the item has been here for many years (it usually is - see "revisions" on a given page) and that Mac Repo was saucily ripped off from Macinthoshgarden.

Maybe we can dig off attention to Mac Repo over time with fair comments.

MacTouch's picture
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Joined: 2016 Mar 19

For my part, as I've seen some of my pages there, I'm gonna "suck" every thing I can found from the "Mac Recopy story" site & uploading here before I couldn't do... Tongue

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

First of all, let me clarify my original post. I don't mind the slightest that my own software is spread to the moon and back. After all, I'm publishing them open source Wink

My rant was meant more as a heads up to the community that MacintoshRepository SEEMINGLY still is automating scraping the Garden. And I think JonathanNemo is onto something when suggesting the RSS being the culprit.

I wholeheartedly second cbone's suggestion of watermarking the screenshots here at the Garden. Would it be feasible to incorporate something like that into the upload-PHP? I have no problems adding a watermark manually to my own screenshots, but think it would work against it's intended purpose to ask the commoner with a still un-uploaded classic Mac application to do the same.

If nothing else, this would at least make that-ben work for his income Tongue

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

Add watermarks to screenshots by all means, but it would also be effective, I think, if a person uploading to here, included into the archive a small note in the the form of a boilerplate stating where the file was uploaded to.

Similar to how WinWorldPC distributes each of their downloads. That way a message of origin would accompany an archived file - MR doesn't repackage the files it sources AFAICT.

Aside: WinWorldPC also sources files from here (and we vice versa). They OTOH do repackage and add their own boilerplate to each file. Too bad some of their files with Mac Resource forks get lost along the way...

mrdav's picture
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Joined: 2011 Dec 3

I no longer concern myself with the other site apart from keeping an eye on it to see if there is anything new worth grabbing for here, which rarely happens. Yes, I felt a bit peeved at first to see the results of my own work for the Garden reproduced in total without any added value, but I am over that now. I certainly do not expect acknowledgement by others when they grab my uploads from here to host elsewhere. For my own part, although a good number of my uploads are uniquely obtained by me, many of them are sourced from elsewhere and often repackaged for our convenience. I usually only state where I got them if I think they are somewhat rare or special in some other way. There is nothing wrong with watermarking screenshots or always stating where you get an upload from, but I will not do that.

lilliputian's picture
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Joined: 2010 Jul 29

Whatever their reason for it, we essentially get a free mirror site out of it, and it also basically operates as a fork of the Garden, since people will upload items there independently, either new ones, or things we can't or won't upload here for whatever reason.

cbone's picture
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Joined: 2011 Sep 17

you know what, I love the way you see it.. it's a very positive and true outlook indeed Smile

and much like the scenario of Bry's open source items, many online repositories do ask for donations but freely distribute their work for free, so the technical loophole is that MR wants cash but although it isn't authoring (to our knowledge) anything new or original, it's within their reach to ask for help with operational costs Cash

and I suppose anyone wanting to mirror this site should be able to make a little to pay for file server space and things

all of which underscores why I love the Mac Garden, because the best things in life should be free to share, no strings attached. And isn't that the true nature of love? So in the end, our reward is so much bigger than theirs Big smile

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

Well said, cbone Smile

z750's picture
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Joined: 2016 Aug 26

Agreed 100%.

z750's picture
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Joined: 2016 Aug 26

That's essentially what I was saying in the first place...

WhosIt.There's picture
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Joined: 2014 Aug 23

The two biggest annoyances are the the idiot ...

  • didn't bother to actually ask the owners and contributors of Macintosh Garden if he could wholesale copy everything,
  • is making money (or is trying to) off our work and contributions.

Dog Cow's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 16

I've had copies of my own disks, which I first put online at Mac GUI Vault, later show up on this site, that other site, Internet archive, and other sites too.... Hum-ho.

I decided I'd add value to my site, so I started writing the Mac 512K Blog to talk about the Macintosh collection. Something new that most sites don't have.

Fortuna Wave's picture
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Joined: 2009 May 23

Some cons when I trying to download something *exclusive* at MacRepo website below.:
1. Slow download speeds
2. Lots of advertising
3. Horrible web design
4. For guests, they need to wait 20 minutes before the next download AND max limit per file is below 100MB. Registered users can download single file below 1GB and 2 minutes waiting time

*exclusive* means the item which is not available in the Garden, eg: Semvalidade2016's collection of Apple discs (most are available here and some are not available in the Garden) and French Mac OS discs, including the PowerBook 1400 7.5.3 CD, which I have re-uploaded here months ago.

z750's picture
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Joined: 2016 Aug 26

All that?

Well, at least you get congratulated for using an old Mac...

Bolkonskij's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 3

While I am thankful for every mirror, this feels bad. I contributed quite some software and screenshots to the MacGarden. They were specifically for the MacGarden. I never agreed to have them uploaded and used somewhere else. The fact that he's making money out of this just makes it all worse ...

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

Know THAT feeling, man!

Co-composed the score for a larger-than-life shareware game back in 2000. This game was spawned from our shared love for the Mac, and everyone involved never asked for anything but our names on the end credits. In the process, I also did some concept 3D vehicle designs for the game that ended up never being used.

2 years later a commercial hybrid PC/Mac game was released with the main vehicles bearing a more-than-striking resemblance to my concept vehicles.

And guess if the lead designer for the commercial game wasn't one of the designers for our love-child shareware game some years prior?

Was this legal? Probably.
Did the Mac-community get another game from this? Definitely.

But sometimes... just sometimes... the end DOESN'T justify the means for the person left with the short end of the stick...

cbone's picture
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Joined: 2011 Sep 17

Whoa, ouch!! So not cool, bro: not even a quick request to use your designs and some credit on the game itself for your graphics work Shock

z750's picture
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Joined: 2016 Aug 26

@cbone Welcome to large businesses. They usually have little regard for the smaller guys.

z750's picture
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Joined: 2016 Aug 26

That sounds incredible. Not everyone gets to be a part of game development.

What was your game?

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

We worked on the game under the code name 'Citrus Five' (later known as 'Kyre'). It only got about 40% done before we had to admit defeat Sad At that point we had started to understand the economy involved in creating a AAA-game, and had already begun to shift focus towards creating a completely separate small-scale shareware game in order to fund Kyre.

Reality sucks some times...

Oh well. At least I got to work with illustrators from Marvel, and co-compose a score with possibly the most legendary composer in the Mac-sphere of things: DigitalDroo Smile

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

Speaking of Droo, can't seem to find the game with his (subjectively) most epic score here at the Garden: NEON TANGO.

Any rules against uploading Freeverse games here at the Garden? If not, I have a working copy ready to go Smile

mrdav's picture
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Joined: 2011 Dec 3

Neon Tango? Do you have the full version? it will need to be a cracked version as the Freeverse registration servers no longer exist. I have had the demo version sitting on my Mac for ages waiting while I try to find a copy of the cracked version before I uploaded it. There is a torrent for it, but no seeders.

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

Full, pre-cracked and ready Wink said it in another thread: Have a CRAP-TON (metric Tongue ) of old Mac software that still isn’t on the Garden just ready to go as soon as I finish up programming my own software. But if Freeverse is fair game, I’ll make an exception and upload Neon Tango in advance Smile

mrdav's picture
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Yep, Freeverse is fair game Smile.Also the release date is 2008 definitely OK. MacGameStore sell a version (but I think it is just the demo version from reading one of the review comments). Anyway, regardless, if the game is Freeverse only with no MacGameStore front end then it is OK to upload.

BryMD's picture
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Here you go mrdav: http://macintoshgarden.org/games/neon-tango/

Also added my very own custom box art for Neon Tango I created for Droo's Neon Tango sound track in my iTunes library some years back, and took cbone's suggestion in watermarking it literarily Wink Your move, that-ben Tongue

PS: Uploaded an un-watermarked version of the box art first, so if the un-watermarked image is the one showing up elsewhere, we know that the RSS is the culprit.

mrdav's picture
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Thank you, BryMD

lilliputian's picture
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If you were working for a large entertainment company like Marvel then I imagine it was done as "work-for-hire", meaning they own everything you made during the project, even if it was ultimately cancelled...

BryMD's picture
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Think you need to read that again, my friend. Illustrators from Marvel were working with US in their spare time (as we all were) Wink

lilliputian's picture
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Ahh, well! I take it all back...

cbone's picture
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Too (bitter) sweet for words, Bry..

But thank goodness for the community-driven Open Source world, and likewise-driven Classic Mac OS abandonware!

z750's picture
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Couldn't have put it better myself.

The way I see it, the community-driven Open Source world is like the free market. Everything is regulated smoothly and naturally to a certain degree of care, which you can't always say the same of for proprietary company-controlled ecosystems, which often happen to stop and close down, or go out of business. Thus, prematurely ceasing function.

But thanks to the community's efforts, software is preserved and hardware is supported (in a way) for over 20 years after original launch.

Good job everybody.

z750's picture
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Excellent game, Bry. The visuals are almost Tron-like, and the soundtrack reminds me of the one from F-Zero GX.

With that said, I think it's one of the most well-done games for PowerPC (and among the few that I can confidently run in Leopard).

Good job.

BryMD's picture
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Joined: 2018 Jul 2

You're very welcome Smile

Just holler if there are any other games or apps you need. Chances are that I've got 'em, or in worst case can get them back (reached out to the Garden 10 years back before physically donating a crap-ton of software to another enthusiast, and got quite the luke-warm answer back, so a lot of old software has been passed on eons ago). But now that I'm more of an active member I definitely will be able to right some wrongs Wink

cbone's picture
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Joined: 2011 Sep 17

Ten years ago? I guess you're still a newbie then Wink