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themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26
Serious debate on Abandonware definition for this site...

Firstly, I believe in abandonware as a legitimate software model (even if only utilised by geeks and enthusiasts of old hardware).

Secondly, I believe the 3-rule policy of this website needs to be tweaked somewhat, so as not to be as selective. I believe a new rule should be as follows:

1. Is the software still commercially available (not including eBay/Amazon)?
2. Does this particular software version run natively on OSX? (carbonised)
3. Does the software company still provide active support for the software version under MacOS 9?

If any of these answers is YES, then it is not abandonware. I am yet to hear of any company that offers OS9 support for their software, or any NEW OS9 software in the past 3 years. When Apple slammed the door on OS9, they locked it behind them!

Honestly, 98% of OS 7-9 software qualifies as abandonware - we are arguing about a very small percentage of the total, and 80% of those are easily resolved.

Any thoughts? Is this a bit generous?

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OSX2000's picture
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Joined: 2009 Sep 29

But even Apple still has OS 9 support, to an extent...so I'm not sure how well that criteria fits.

http://www.apple.com/support/macos9/

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

OSX2000 - website FAQ's and software downloads does not really constitute "active" support. My idea of active support is continuing patches for compatibility (up to OS9.x.x) and response to issues of stability/compatibility. I'm sure that some Apple employees in the Genius Bar sometimes do some work with Classic environment, but that would be the full extent of Apple's "support". Apple made a very emphatic statement about the death of OS9, and went as far as staging a mock funeral, complete with casket! This was a long time ago (2005?).

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

Now we change of thread?
The other one was cool,
http://macintoshgarden.org/forum/stop-linking-torrents-warez

...I was just starting to warm up.

Carl's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 2

There are plenty of Mac OS X games that aren't being sold or supported by their publishers. Icewind Dale, for example, was made by Black Isle (dead and gone) and ported to mac by MacPlay, who were bought by Mumbo Jumbo. Can you imagine a more disgraceful way for a software company to go? MacPlay ported Baldur's Gate II. Take a quick look at Mumbo Jumbo's website and you'll see what kind of junk they make.

Casady & Greene made some Mac OS X games. They are now all gone and absolutely impossible to find.

And then there are, as always, lots of shareware companies that have disappeared. Dragon Alpha was, in fact, abandoned by the developer. The company was then bought by someone else. We don't have the full version, but if we did, it wouldn't be a problem.

Mac OS X was first released in 2000(?). Nine years is a long time in the computer world.

OSX2000's picture
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Joined: 2009 Sep 29

March 24th, 2001 was Mac OS X's release (not the beta, which didn't support anything). Either way, long time. There is a bunch of OS X abandonware. I second Euryale's suggestion in the other thread for a Mac OS X category.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 10

My controversial suggestion would be that if a game is still commercially available for Windows, it ain't abandonware. So Baldur's Gate and Fallout and whatever would not be allowed here.

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Joined: 2009 Nov 14

That's unfair. Many older Windows games still run on modern systems and are floating as shovelware. Not so with the Mac version.

Carl's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 2

Let's remove these as well.

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

Before I uploaded Duke Nukem 3D I found out that the Windows version is still sold,
So I asked here, and someone answered me that only the Mac version is abandonware
so it was fine to upload it, and it makes sense.

Now, I still believe that if the Authors/publishers stopped supporting XYZ version of the same game,
then it is abandonware,

I don't consider warez if a company(like WalMart/Target) buys a whole bunch of boxes of a-now-obsolete- product, and resells them, even in a wrapped box,
they just got stuck with what they've got and sorry(but not sorry) for them,

I've seen a lot of old abandonware still sold at stores.
to me, they are just resellers, and what they sell is not warez per se anymore.

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

Carl - nice one - compatibility of those 14 games - Win95 & DOS. Believe it or not, there are some out there still using DOS, OS/2, BeOS in their original state. Windows abandonware should be classed as running on Win98SE or later.

Carl's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 2

I was just trying to point out that old games are re-released in "mega packs" for windows all the time. If you did that with mac games, you'd sell about 20 copies, but there's a lot more people using windows.
If the mac version of a game isn't available, the mac version is abandonware.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 10

The publisher would say: "We're still selling the game. It's not abandoned. Use a PC emulator on your Mac and then you can buy the game."

iig's picture
iig
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Joined: 2009 Jul 16

Who cares about windows abandonware!!!
This is a Mac site called Macintosh Garden, so i think we should just focus on weather or not its still sold on the mac side.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

I still believe that OS9 compatability, although perhaps an indicator, has nothing to do with whether software should be classed as "abandonware". We should still be performing the same checks as if it was released last week.

I'd also like to see some time period between the end of software being sold as new and the site hosting it as abandonware. Just because Aspyr stops selling it on Thursday doesn't make it abandonware on Friday.

And just to stir things up, how many of you are actually buying more than two pieces of Mac software a year (and I mean buying rather than "acquiring"), thus preserving original Mac software install media for the future - the "abandonware" of 2019 ??

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

nmz-502: Well said!

I seriously doubt that there is a company still selling and actively supporting any OS9 software, bar say some very high-end music programs - and even then I am unsure.

The saddest thing is, that Dreamcast games are still being developed and sold - it is a shame the same cannot be said for OS9 (around the same timeframe too).

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Joined: 2009 Apr 10

Well, yeah, but the Windows version can be purchased legally and then played in a PC emulator aren't we causing the publisher to lose money by putting the abandonware up? Isn't that just warez?

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Joined: 2009 Jun 12

The groundbreaking Combat mission:Beyond Overlord (mac) is still sold and supported by Battlefront.com even though it can't be played in OSX or Classic mode. I guess it would be hard to call it abandonware. Too bad....although the good news is it's only $15.00 Smile

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

As I said before,
Let's make this easy and Stop posting Mac OS X software,
whether abandonware or not, a line has to drawn in order to avoid problems for Macgarden,
impossible to make everyone happy but a decision has to be made. bam!

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

On a related note - I think The Macintosh Garden should stop at OS9.2.2. That means no OSX software whatsoever, abandonware or not - on the site. Carbonised software that can run on both is a grey area, but carbonising apps has been dead since Cocoa was introduced (which CANNOT run on OS9) which was quite a while ago.

On the subject of "Warez" - virtually everything on this site is "Warez" - it is commercial software that people can download without paying for. It is simply the age, and licensing/publishing scenario which creates a huge niche for abandonware. Some famous software authors have embraced the abandonware idea, but sadly, the bigger the company behind a title, the more money they try to wring from it.

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

I'm just about to pound the Court Gavel (thus closing the case)
unless there's a substantiated objection from someone else. Tongue

Carl's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 2

I'd just like to point out that a lot of Mac OS X compatible software does NOT run on modern versions of the system (I am unsure, but I believe Snow Leopard also broke many 10.5 applications). If a game runs only on a PPC computer running Mac OS 10.2 and the company that made the game has been gone for years, it should be pretty safe to host here.

Also, although a big company may try to "wring more money from" an old game, consider this: When EA's new games have a 90% piracy rate, do they really care if someone pirates this?

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

The Carl shows his excellence in all things...

FutureCop:LAPD kicks ROYAL BUTT! The finest 2-player co-op or competitive game ever made in my opinion - still runs sweetly under XP too (although some systems cannot use the higher resolutions fullscreen).

Bolkonskij's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 3

No, they don't Carl. They have other problems than a bunch of retro gaming ethusiasts downloading their ten to fifteen year old games.

I would feel really sorry for Mac Garden if we would leave OS X software out. There are dozens of good OS X games out there that e. g. won't run on anything later than 10.2 / 10.3 (released in 2002/03) and are impossible to find on the net, because their creators went out of business and so did the mirrors.
And whenever someone uploaded software to the MacGarden which is still sold, there were some eagle eyes who reported and pointed on it. Let's trust in our judgement.

People, let's think about how many good apps/utilities and games from the os classic era are lost forever by today! And why? Because nobody cared to archive them. I believe that we shouldn't do the same mistake twice by ignoring early OS X software now. After all, it's the Mac Gardens motto to preserve good ol' software, right?

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Joined: 2009 Nov 14

The Sims mysteriously disappeared from the list! What happened there?

OSX2000's picture
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Joined: 2009 Sep 29

It was apparently declared not abandonware. I'm not surprised, as it runs in OS X on modern Macs. And EA Games probably wouldn't have liked seeing it here if they ever did.

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

As long as there's Mac OS X software uploaded, there will be a big chance that a lot of that
won't be abandonware, we've already seen a lot of irresponsible uploads and that's precisely the cause of this discussion (I remember all those piratebay links and direct downloads to warez)

Personally, I would love to have all software of all Mac OSes available,
but i'd rather not to have just some of that software (Mac OS X),
than having the whole Macgarden get into legal trouble, and not having anything at all.

so if someone finds good Mac OS X abandonware just save it until the time is right,

but I really hope the Admins open a new category for Mac OS X compatible software only,
so we can keep track of that easily.

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

but I really hope the Admins open a new category for Mac OS X compatible software only,
so we can keep track of that easily.

Something like 'Carbon' in the Architecture area: 68k, PowerPC, Carbon, Cocoa.

Remember, 'Carbon' means, this game runs at Mac OS 9 if CarbonLib is installed, and it runs at Mac OS X PowerPC, in a native way.
Cocoa based games are Mac OS X-only games.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

IIRC Carbon runs back to 8.6 even. I fully agree with Eurayle´s thoughts. Better keep the Garden to OS 9 as a highest version. To those who whish, setup 'XHaven' to continue the task, but on a different server. X is too close to 'warez' at least in comparision with the stuff kept in the original Macintosh Garden. It will most likely draw attention from all places. And *if* 'XHaven' should catch the wrong kind kind of light, it wouldn´t take the lot with it.

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Joined: 2009 Nov 14

Sadly, The Sims for Mac is NOT from EA, and the current retail version does not run in Mac OS 9. I guess there's always torrents (*sigh*)

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Sorry, did I say the original version of the Sims is currently available from EA (thus making it definitely NOT abandonware) ? I should have said Aspyr. Buy it here.

All of you BUY it now. Do your bit for preserving Mac software. When Aspyr stop selling it next year, we can discuss uploading that version here.

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

Bertyboy - did you click the link that says "System Requirements"?

System Requirements:

* Operating System: Mac OS X 10.3.9

Aspyr might be able to help out here? doubt it tho Tongue

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

tmm,

it is original Sims. While the installer may have been re-written to run under OSX (rather than OS9 / Classic on the original release - which I own), it's still the original product.

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

Well, i'd like to know what the Admins think about this,
because no matter what we talk/discuss here, if we say "right" but the Admins say "Left",
then I guess there's not much we/users, can do about it.

iig's picture
iig
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Joined: 2009 Jul 16

Blah Blah Blah! So much talk!
Don't Upload stuff if its still sold ON THE MAC SIDE.
that is the best rule.

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

My opinion is that Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!vBlah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!Blah Blah Blah!vBlah Blah Blah! excuse my french!

iig's picture
iig
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Joined: 2009 Jul 16

The Sims is Gone!!! Its Abandonware, because this one was by Maxis! Good Thing i got it before it was yanked!!

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Joined: 2009 Jun 12

since this is a forum 'blah blah' is what i expect to read. closing the door on this debate is simply laziness.

OSX2000's picture
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Joined: 2009 Sep 29

All Aspyr did was port the Sims to PPC Mac. It was developed by Maxis, which EA has owned since 1997. EA holds the copyright to The Sims, and I doubt very seriously that they would consider it abandonware.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Sims is a moot topic.

It's a simple question, would Aspyr's lawyers take issue with this site allowing a free download of software they had paid EA /Maxis for to have the right to post it to an OSX installer ? You bet.

Moot, because there are infinitely better simulations available from here that definitely are abandonware.

iig's picture
iig
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Joined: 2009 Jul 16

ok, thanks for the clarfication Smile .

schoolhacker's picture
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Joined: 2009 Sep 18

i think it would simply be something in which the company who made it no longer care if it is been pirated lol