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IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8
Qemu 2019 port, someone with success executing it?

This is a recent Qemu port over at emaculation.com, and I've tried to follow the advice to execute it.

But it seems I do not own the experience to get it started.

If you've used Qemu before, please post your experience below.

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Veneteaou's picture
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Joined: 2015 May 27

I tried it a year ago or so, and IMO it's going to be the future but it's not there yet. SheepShaver is more stable and supports a wider variety of software (in my experience). And is likely faster as well. Cat_7 on the Emaculation forums ran a test:

Current performance (related to 100% for a 1.0 Ghz G4) with the Skidmarks test:
Integer calculations 130 %
Floating point calculations 9%
Altivec calculations 11 %

And that's from the end of February 2019. So it's doing some things well, but others are essentially non-existent.

Stability-wise, it's not bad.

The long-term upside is that everything will eventually be worked out (probably). In the short-term though, that means skipping over the shortcuts and bandaids that went into PearPC, Basilisk II, and SS and other smaller emulation projects.

At this point, I'd still suggest a different emulator. In another year or two though, QEMU probably moves past them handily.

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Just try the screamer build for sound.
Add a 9.2.iso to Cat_7´s build and see how you fare.
It should boot into 9.2 just fine, at least it does on my side.
I usually used a HFS+ disk image to transfer files between SheepShaver and Qemu - the lazy way. Wink

Screenshot-2019-04-11-at-00-15-42

Edit:
Guess I do see your point now IIgs, I can´t seem to boot from the HDD with MacOS9 on it.
Thanks to adespoton, I do know meanwhile that qemu.command has to be edited like this:
Change -boot d to -boot c to boot from the emulated HDD.

Screenshot-2019-04-11-at-21-16-48

I feel that both SheepShaver and Qemu are fast enough on my SandyBridge laptop
for any MacOS task I can think of.
Sure SheepShaver is insanely fast on even half recent hardware,
but Qemu offers best compatibility - thinking of MS Office`98 or RagTime 3.1.
MMU support seems to be implemented with Qemu 3.1 too.
Sound with Qemu (screamer) is still an issue on my side with a Mojave host.
My older screamer instance on a Windows Core2Quad plays sound all right.
Except for that, Qemu can be successfully set up fairly easy with Cat_7´s prebuilt zip sets.

Almost forgot: Browsing the net is possible too with Classilla.
For those daredevils here. Wink

Screenshot-2019-04-11-at-21-41-36

Jatoba's picture
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Joined: 2018 Apr 16

Is the Refresh Rate good? From my experience with Sheepshaver and Basilisk, it's a lot lower than running things on a real Mac or, at the very least, that's what it felt like running certain applications. To see what I mean, pick Escape Velocity and compared it native vs. Classic/SheepShaver/Basilisk II. I know SS/BII have an option to set the Refresh Rate, but even if you push it to the limit, the symptom doesn't go away.

I get the feeling one day QEMU will truly be able to, in many ways, replace the old hardware, but I think I'd be optimistic to say it will take longer than 10 years for it to reach the point I'd like, a point in which replacing things could actually be seriously considered...

There is a faster fork of QEMU called HQEMU, by the way, for those interested, but getting that guy to work/compile etc. is a pain, and doesn't work on most hosts in which QEMU does.

In any case, QEMU is so darn cool. Love the scope. Love how far people keep pushing it day by day.

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Thanks Jatoba, but I´m not the right guy to judge gaming experience.
I did run MacBench5 however on Mojave with both Qemu and SheepShaver 2.5.
Results for grapics tests are mixed as you will notice.
SheepShaver is not always faster than Qemu, but I have no real Mac any more to test against.
(Lets hope that Christian Bauer comes back to his labour of love after retirement,
more than 15 years to go I guess, and that he finds the time to implement the missing parts - MIDI, MMU, 3D Graphics, some day Wink )

Both VMWare and VirtualBox do offer graphics hardware acceleration by now.
Lets hope some programmers are willing to add these features to Qemu in the near future.
An ATI Rage emulation or similar would fill the gap for many games unplayable in Mac emulation today.

Screenshot-2019-04-12-at-14-12-08

If you could add some test results of your MacOS, emulated or real hardware, feel free to use the results included with the 2nd DL here: http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macbench-50

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Nobody with spare time before easter? Wink
I did update the second DL on the MacBench 5 page.
The emulator benchmarks are in their own folder in the results folder now.
As you will notice, Qemu emulating a G3 cpu, is already outperforming the blueprint SheepShaver partially emulates - the good old PPC 9500.
Obviously SheepShaver is way faster in some aspects.

If someone could add some specs from a CoffeLake cpu or similar, that would be good to know.

Screenshot-2019-04-14-at-23-23-42

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

As a postman, I'm always busy, with spare time. Smile

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

I tried this DL from Cat_7´s collection: https://surfdrive.surf.nl/files/index.php/s/6wzv0pyfeX8GVwe/download
Maybe a newer experimental build would be worth a try too?

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

Thanks, I'll give it a try. Smile

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Wait, better try this with sound and altivec emulation supposed to be working.
https://surfdrive.surf.nl/files/index.php/s/l3gtv2uGFhr9O1P/download

As experimental build, it still likes to crash, but when running, it plays Nanosaur!
Maybe the whole lot of games relying on ATI Rage etc. will work too?
Someone should do some gaming tests…
First time I saw Nanosaur running since my iMac Bondi blues are gone due to failing hardware.

Nano

Edit:
Forgot to mention the screenshot is from Nanosaur shareware version running in demo mode -
not sure whether that matters.

SkyCapt's picture
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Joined: 2017 Jan 11

Nanosaur maybe benefits from GPU acceleration on some old systems, but Nanosaur runs fine on my Mac without GPU - Nanosaur is written in QuickDraw3D which has GPU plus a fallback software-only rendering mode.

Run Star Wars Episode I Pod Racer, .. then I'll be impressed. Smile

-----

Some other QuickDraw3D titles may function:
. 3-D Cannon
. Gerbils! & GoCart
. Payback by Freeverse

I can run many other 3D games without hardware GPU, booted into OS9.2.1 on my Mirror Door 2003. I doubt they're all QD3D i.e. many 'engine' have dual support for GPU and for software-only render.

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Sure SkyCapt, Qemu PPC does not emulate a GPU like a ATI Rage or similar.
So, no - Star Wars Episode I Pod Racer will not run, of course.

VMWare and VirtualBox do have GPU emulation for some time meanwhile.
Maybe somebody knowing what he is doing can borrow there, but it seems that OpenBios is not ready for that either.

I never expected to see Qemu PPC running OS9 and some apps that always crashed with SheepShaver. GPU support would be another huge step forward…

Jatoba's picture
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Joined: 2018 Apr 16

GPU support in emulators is something that is always incredibly nice to have, but is seldom ever implemented. If Basilisk II used PSP and PSVita GPUs, for example, they could probably run, with incredible ease and smoothness, any 68k software that was ever made for a 68k Mac. But since that's not the case, even some 2D games can play slugishly, like Prince of Persia 2, SimCity 2000 and Escape Velocity, while a 3D game like Hexen is literally 1 FPS or less, updating graphics like how one moves through a PowerPoint presentation.

I really, really wish more operating system emulators would offer GPU acceleration! Since it is something not that commonly seen, I imagine it must be a real pain in the rear to implement.

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

On a Mac clone that I've used on a daily base at its time, I've seen NanoSaur runs in grayscale colours. As long as no 3D accelerator card is installed.

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Forgot to mention that the pre-4 experimental build works maybe better even with Sierra.
Either way, the VGA driver was updated nicely:

Screenshot-2019-04-17-at-12-21-53

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

Sounds great.

Similar theme:
My recent test on real hardware (PowerBook G3 Pismo, with external VGA monitor), didn't even play 3D graphics on the external one.

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Agreed, Quemu 4 looks promising indeed.
Once a few glitches are ironed out and someone donates a setup GUI it may become the first choice Mac emulator.
The pre-4 build is even faster on graphics than its 3.1 sibling.
Not too big a surprise with altivec included.
Not working with Qemu as of today is "Reboot". Qemu has to be killed by "force quit" on the host in case it hangs.

adespoton's picture
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Joined: 2015 Feb 15

Just so you guys are aware, work has been going on to implement an ATI Rage software GPU in QEMU for about a year now. Some of the architectural bits are complete, as is some reference code for the actual GPU implementation. Integrating these two ends of the solution has proven to be difficult however; there are still some bits that aren’t working for unknown reasons.

Possibly QEMU could borrow a bit from VirtualBox now that VB has updated to a recent QEMU and is using a current OpenBIOS in version 6. But there are very few GPU experts looking at this.

Elyus's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 9

I've been using Qemu with OS 9 for a while now, and while it doesn't feel as fast as Sheepshaver, Qemu PPC development has been progressing at an impressive rate. Experimental builds support sound, better fpu and altivec, and as adespoton pointed out, efforts to load graphics drivers. Within the last week, kanjitalk released an OS 9 driver for smoother mouse integration under Qemu.

I actually think the Garden should consider adding Qemu as a checkbox under Emulation options for uploads. There's a number of games, like Nanosaur, which run very well under Qemu that previously had no good emulation options.

fogWraith's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 23

It should now be an option, QEMU that is.

Jatoba's picture
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So, I finally started poking at QEMU the past fews days, to see how serious an option it may be in the future to take over our aging PPC hardware, and...

My hopes were unrealistic. Before, I said that maybe in another 10+ years, QEMU may reach a point it could become a serious contender at replacing the real hardware. I was wrong. Now, I think 30+ years, if ever, is a more accurate answer.

The main gripe I have with it is the mouse input lag: it takes some miliseconds to move the mouse, and the second issue is, much like with SheepShaver and Basilisk II, the refresh rate / framerate. I don't think graphics acceleration alone would solve any of the two. (Although it may perhaps alleviate the problem.) And I'm not sure if it's just me, but it looked as if the framerate cannot remain consistent. That is, sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down.

In short, I think QEMU is phenomenal, and thank God we have something as good and versatile as it. But, at least at the rate it's going, it will never replace the real hardware. Ever. I wish it would, but so far it won't.
Still, I hope that at least GPU acceleration and the sound improvements will land in the official codebase soon.

Also, does anyone know if there is a known thread/forum that discusses in-depth usage of QEMU on PPC hardware, with Mac OS X, providing PPC binaries? At least over at Emaculation, all I could see were pre-compiled binaries... for x86 only. Facepalm I would like to run QEMU in virtualization mode with KVM, as opposed to emulation mode, for alleged "near native" speeds. But I'm not sure where to start looking.

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

graphics rate/refresh rate

Same as seen in commercial PC emulation/virtualization.

Jatoba's picture
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Joined: 2018 Apr 16

Oh, definitely. In fact, QEMU is in many ways vastly superior than the likes of VMware, VirtualBox etc., it's absolutely fantastic as a virtualization option, on top of it doing emulation (which most commercial VMs don't for x86, at least the more accessible ones). Just looking at all the architectures and systems it supports, it's absolutely mindblowing.

I was just making the point that, sadly, unlike how sometimes it gets worded as, or passed off as, be it in Mac forums or in blogs like Talospace/TenFourFox', it cannot replace native booting. At all. It can, however, fill in the needs of some who want to run some particular app for some particular purpose in some foreign environment, as long as it's compatible enough with it (and QEMU's compatibility, because of its accuracy, is pretty darn good), so it's definitely super useful, but no substitute...

Duality's picture
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Joined: 2014 Mar 1

It has its legs.

IBM OzLabs has been contributing major features like Altivec support to QEMU. The support to emulate a Sawtooth and a Beige G3 came from a Google Summer of Code intern project suggested by the author of DiskImageChef. Within the past year, AIX is now supported on a fully emulated PReP machine.

Given time, funding and interest, other pieces will land, though I expect emulated GPU support outside of PCI passthrough solutions to remain tricky. Even PCI passthrough is no easy feat. There's an enthusiast blog dedicated to all the arcane solutions that are known to work for PCI passthrough of a GPU, so far focused on recent versions of Mac OS X for Intel.

I remember the days when you needed an LC ROM to be hooked up via a hardware breaker box and a 68k CPU for early Mac emulators to work at all.

Which is all a way of saying, it's not there today. It's been making really good strides in the past decade, for a feature driven by enthusiasts that landed in its roughest form back in 2011.

(It also helps that VMware cheats a bit by using the Mac OS X pen and tablet support to handle the mouse cursor. SheepShaver and Basilisk have their own tricks with overriding the Mac Toolbox to make the user input feel smoother than it is.)

Jatoba's picture
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SheepShaver and Basilisk have their own tricks with overriding the Mac Toolbox to make the user input feel smoother than it is.

That's been on my mind for a while now... Because I was trying to understand how come the mouse cursor is so smooth on Basilisk on PSVita and PSP. It feels very good to use. On Windows, mouse moving on Basilisk feels like something between the PSVita/PSP counterparts and QEMU. (No idea why Basilisk feels different in Windows vs. PSP/Vita.)

Interesting to know a bit more as to why!

uyjulian's picture
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Basilisk II injects the mouse input events instead of going through a USB HID layer.