This page is a wiki. Please login or create an account to begin editing.


27 posts / 0 new
Last post
papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21
Installing mac os 8

Hello I have a powerbook duo 2300 that runs really slow on mac os 9. I have a mac os 8 cd and think it would be faster. Can i install mac os 8 over 9 or will that just erase the drive?

Comments

rbshep's picture
Offline
Joined: 2020 Mar 5

It probably would be faster under 8.

9 is pig slow on my 8100/80. Also, one of the 'road apple' performa AIO's i tried it on - forget which model - but guessing it's got a CPU just as 'fast' - was pretty dire too.

See if you can boot from the CD first - and also, maybe copy the installation files to a folder on the HD, just to check the CD can be read OK.

You can rename the existing system folder and install 8. I'd suggest upgrading to 8.1 right away. You might also find 8.6 is OK, speed wise, and a bit more 'up to date' Wink

The only thing I think could be an issue is the hard disk 'driver' (partition) - if the system doesn't boot properly, you'd then need to re-initialise the disk with Drive Setup when booted from the CD, and install again.

According to what i've read, that model supports 7.5.2 up. I'd imagine you could use the 7.5.3 installer (and upgrade to 7.5.5 right away). I certainly would think 7.6 would install without a hitch - if you want a more retro feel to the system, and the best speed possible.

papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21

Thanks. Unfortuantely the duo has no cd rom drive so it has to be done over appletalk. But when trying to install it says " dfa server unexpectedly quit" so i cant move forward for Some reason

rbshep's picture
Offline
Joined: 2020 Mar 5

Many, many years ago I once upgraded a Duo 280 to 8.1 without local storage using localtalk cables.

I forget the exact procedure, but I believe it involved setting a RAM disk on the Duo, copying the contents of the 7.5.3 Network Access Disk to it, booting from it, mounting the server, and running drive setup and the installer from there.

cbone's picture
Offline
Joined: 2011 Sep 17

Do you have another Classic Mac? On a 2300c, the easiest way to work on the hard drive is by connecting it to another SCSI-based Mac via SCSI disk mode.

For this to work, you need to have a Duo dock like this one, along with Powerbook SCSI-to-SCSI connector cable. This allows your 2300s hard drive to act as a hard drive on another Mac and install any OS you like. If this is feasible, the only caveat is if your Powerbook has a 4GB ATA hard drive or larger.

papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21

I dont have a duo dock ive been looking all over for one. That one is wayyy to expensive. At this point after installling 8 over appletalk and restarting the computer just said its not compatible which is weird. And now it just spins up and stalls with blinking disk. So thats sad lol. I hope i can find a dock to mabie connect s external drive to it

cbone's picture
Offline
Joined: 2011 Sep 17

Sorry about the failed install; this is where having more than one Mac can be so useful! Sad

Is there a possibility to redo the net-install? (unfortunately, this is not an area I have any experience in) Now if you aren't afraid of pulling the hard drive out (assuming you have another Classic Mac) you might be able to put it in your other Mac and use it to install the OS. It's a lot of tinkering, but I've done it before. It worked, but it wasn't any fun.

I also looked for some Iomega Zip drives on eBay, but no dice atm. You could possibly get one on sale, ideally w/an included Powerbook SCSI cable, then all you'd need is a smaller Duo SCSI dock. You could then get an OS on a Zip disk and boot it from there (this also serves as a great rescue external boot drive). It's a bit of an investment when all's said and done, but it's saved my bacon a bunch of times when my OS needs a quick fix or has gone south. It also helps tremendously that the Zip disks themselves aren't very expensive on eBay (roughly $4-5 shipped, depending on the number of disks you get).

Macs are a long-term investment (why do you think I bought several Minis to get Mac OS 9 running on them? well, for the exact same reason!).

Yet another idea could be having someone here install an OS on a compatible hard drive and send that to you. You'd need to install it or have a local shop do so, like a Best Buy or other even an Apple store. Craigslist might also be able to locate you some of items you could use, a local Mac repair person, or even a cheap vintage Mac to do the hard drive swap with (although a desktop would have the larger 3.5-inch hard drives, so you'd need to pull the drive out of your Powerbook to connect to the desktop Mac, unless the Mac you get is another Powerbook).

rbshep's picture
Offline
Joined: 2020 Mar 5

The only things i can think of here is that you're missing a system enabler, you're trying to boot from the install disc which has been copied to a r/w volume, the disk driver partitions are too new / old, or the disc is a model-specific version (like an iMac cd)

I'd seriously look into the ram disk method i outlined earlier, and re-initialise the drive with the drive setup version supplied with the OS you want to install.

papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21

Thanks for all the suggestions. I wouldnt mind if somebody could install mac os 8.5 on a hdd for the duo from here i dont know how much that would cost. I have alot of powerbooks but none that run powerpc or have a cd drive. Also this is a ata drive not scsi. I have a powerbook g3 coming and im hoping the drive works so i can buy a new drive and install software on that. Also mabie your right about system enabler. Its from the original mac os 8 cd though.

adespoton's picture
Offline
Joined: 2015 Feb 15

Two suggstions for ways I've done an install in the past:

First is to remove the ATA drive and mount it on a different system, then copy the 8.1 or 8.6 installer image (toast image, not just the system folder) to the disk. Mount the disk image using Toast (which you may also need to copy onto the drive) and run the installer to create the System folder. In this case, after launching the installer, rename the existing System folder.

Second method is to create a System folder elsewhere using the option to create 8.1 or 8.6 for all supported Macs -- need to use a retail CD image to do this. Then copy the System folder over. The easiest way to switch between your current OS and 8.1/8.6 is to use System Picker, which blesses the appropriate System Folder. You can name the folders anything you want -- I had one named System Folder 7.6.1 and one named System Folder 8.1 on my Mac from that era.

cbone's picture
Offline
Joined: 2011 Sep 17

As usual, Adespoton is spot on Wink

The following complements his concise instructions and gives a background to things specific to the Powerbook 2300c:

System enablers were ubiquitous back then with the introduction of System 7.1; there were way too many to count! Shock but before I get ahead of myself, let me ask some key questions about your 2300c:

■ Do you recall if the hard drive is smaller than 4GB?
■ Does it have a floppy disk drive?

I ask about the hard drive because SCSI disk mode only supports drives smaller than 4GB. If it's larger, then we have to address that before going forward. And if it does have a floppy drive, we may also be in business!

Now, let's examine your Macs, could you list them here? And can you also provide the exact specs of the G3 Powerbook you ordered as well? You see, all of the requested above could have commonalities that can help each other out, depending on the models you have! For example, the following Powerbooks do not have SCSI drive capabilities (or TDM, officially):

■ Powerbook 140
■ Powerbook 145
■ Powerbook 145B
■ Powerbook 150
■ Powerbook 170

You see, not too many folks are aware of that w/a little Mac voodoo (some simple Mac-hacking trickery), you can jimmy rig any externally SCSI-enabled Mac with some little-documented usage of the boot interrupt sequence to make it act like a SCSI hard drive when connected to another Mac; and that's if you want to go the easier (but more expensive) route. I'm excited now because I haven't even gotten to the best part (if there is such a thing during your boot crisis) so let me paint a scenario for you. Suppose that your 68k Powerbook lineup only includes the ones I listed above. For this recipe, you'd need:

■ practically any 68k Mac with an external SCSI port, really
■ your non-booting PB2300c
■ a SCSI-to-SCSI cable (they shouldn't be expensive to get)
■ any dock for the 2300c w/a SCSI port (although a dock w/a floppy counts too!)

Now for some sad news: as you already noticed, the 2300c suffers from serious performance issues because of how Apple designed it Sad so anything remotely modern like 9.x, or even 8.5 or 8.6 is going to make it crawl. I should know, the one I owned that was slow with 8.1.

But, if you're okay running it 'like' a 68k Mac, it should give you much more 'vintage' enjoyment. The trackpad and smaller size compared to all the 68k Powerbooks I had used before is what I loved the most on my little 2300. Because of its performance, I turned it into a kid's mac and it worked nicely for playing some nice 68k-era games. Before repurposing it, I mainly used it for word processing. I used WriteNow (although any of the others 'oldies-but-goodies' like Word 5 and ClarisWorks 5, etc. will do in a pinch).

Getting back to the troubleshooting: your target OS should be between 7.5.2 through 8.1. I installed both, depending on what I wanted to do with it (and how quickly I wanted to get things done!). You see, this model shipped with System 7.5.2, and this version of the Mac OS is the lightest in resources. However, you can run System 7.5.3 fine with it, and more importantly, this OS version is 100% 68k-compatible, so you can install it on your other 'books and swap that hard drive into the 2300c to boot it! That's the cheapest option, just be careful as you perform any such surgery (some folks forget to demagnetize themselves and end up hurting sensitive parts exposed during the process!).

papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21

Wow i didnt expect these great suggestions. I have a powerbook duo 2300, duo 210, pb 170, pb 100, ibook g3, ibook clamshell, performa 6116cd (Which i connected the 2300c to for appletalk), pb 520c, pb G3 wallstreet 233mhz, mac iisi, mac LC and powerbook duo 230. All of these dont have ATA drives. Used to have a 190cs with 7.5.2 but it got sold. My 2300c used to be a duo 280c but i upgraded it to ppc and used the hard drive from a broken pb 3400c and i think its 1gb. Now the startup is weird. When i turn on the powerbook it goes to a floppy and spins then stops repeatedly. This is after i zapped the pram.

cbone's picture
Offline
Joined: 2011 Sep 17

You're right, Apple did introduce ATA later in the game Sad

This is why the SCSI disk mode would be perfect, which is also the most expensive option of the bunch because it'll require finding or getting the right cords and adapters.

■ the most common SCSI cable type is the HDI-30 to CN50 SCSI Cable (Male-to-Male)

The HDI-30 end goes onto any of the Powerbooks, even the Powerbook 100! Didn't you get any cables outside of the power adapters with any of the other Powerbooks you purchased?

papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21

Well the 2300c actually does scsi and ata. I have both hard drive cables. And no i didnt get that specific cable but i just ordered a 20mb old external scsi drive. I think the best option since i dont have any other ppc powerbook with a cd drive is find a preinstalled hard disk with system 7.5.2 on it. Or find a duo dock which i cant find at all cheap. Do you know why the 2300 needs system enablers for all the operating system? It ran mac os 9 without one

cbone's picture
Offline
Joined: 2011 Sep 17

These enablers started and ended between System 7 Pro (version 7.1.1) until System 7.5.2. Thankfully, later System versions did away with the system enabler nonsense, so as from System 7.5.3 onward, none need any enablers.

rbshep's picture
Offline
Joined: 2020 Mar 5

Oh! I didn't realise when i made my original comment about using the RAM disc we were dealing with a non-booting system Sad There's always the option of a floppy drive, if you have one, and booting the Network Access Disk that way

cbone's picture
Offline
Joined: 2011 Sep 17

Does the Duo have a floppy disk drive? If you do, then the following link contains the floppy disks you need, specifically the: Mac OS 7.5.3 Revision 2 floppy disk images, which you can write to floppies. I'm a little rusty on the best way to maneuver these zipped from the Internet to your older Macs, but hopefully you've duplicated other floppies from the Garden's disk images before.

The file you need on this page is labeled MacOS753_r2.ZIP

From this same page it reads:

This is the update for PowerBook 5300, PowerBook Duo 2300, PowerBooks with Connectix RAM Doubler, PowerBook 200 or 500 models with PowerPC upgrade « (this is your 2300c right here), Power Macintosh 7200, 7500, 7600, 8500 and 9500 systems. It fixes some bugs for the users running these computers above.

Then hopefully once you have a working system folder on your 2300 again, we can visit the different versions that play nice with it. It's a bit of a shame that we don't have the individual disk images in stuffed .sit format ready to go for your 68k Powerbooks (I'm assuming you can get online somehow on at least a couple of them)

24bit's picture
Offline
Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Hi papi!
I could donate a 60GB IDE 2.5" HDD, if anybody would tell me how to prepare the drive for the PB 2300 from OSX Leopard and SheepShaver - if that is possible at all.

Meanwhile I would consider a floppy solution like the one offered here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-HDI-20-1-4MB-PowerBook-Duo-Floppy-Drive-a...

The duodock pinout is available at pinouts.ru, but I doubt that it will help much.

Description

152pin PDS connector

The seller also has the dock and mini-doc too, only for dedicated collectors, I suppose: Cash
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Macintosh-PowerBook-DuoDock-Desktop-Duo-D...

Edit:
My HDD is a Toshiba MK6034GAX.
Just saw that ATA-6 drives like this are incompatible with any pre-G4 PowerBooks. Sad
https://web.archive.org/web/20050407183137/https://eshop.macsales.com/Ca...

cbone's picture
Offline
Joined: 2011 Sep 17

As far as drives go, one of the most versatile routes is to get a removable drive, like a zip drive, jazz drive or orb drive. The main reason is that you have maximum expandability, and they are Classic Mac OS bootable (I've booted from System 7 up to OS 9).

The best of the group are the 100MB zip disks and the 250MB (or 100MB) drives, mainly because they are an abundance of 100MB zip disks (and they cost less than 250MB disks too). The 250MB zip drives also happen to be the most compatible, reading both 100MB and 250MB disks versus the 100 zip drives limited to 100MB disks; just be sure you get the models that are equipped with SCSI ports.

24bit's picture
Offline
Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Absolutely, yes. Even the Syquest SQ555 were rock solid and reliable, bootable too.
The problem with the PB2300c duo is more that the "naked" PB has barely any connectivity except for the PDS slot aka Docking Connector.

Description

Every expansion drive needs a rather expensive docking thing plus Apple proprietary cables.
Thats why I was suggesting the floppy dock above for 40 bucks plus shipping.

cbone's picture
Offline
Joined: 2011 Sep 17

Excellent point, 24bit, and I hear 'ya 100%!

When I asked Papi if he owned any other Macs, I didn't realize he had that many—we're all closet-Mac hoarders, lol!! So investing in a Duo dock would benefit not only his Duo 280c that he upgraded to a 2300c, but also his two other Duos: the 210 and 230! I'm just a bit surprised that having three of them, he didn't inherit any of their accessories—unless they broke? Unfortunately, in this day and age, ebay sellers prefer selling everything piecemeal to make more money.

And with 100MB zip disks costing as little as $4 each, that second investment would definitely be a true win-win for him as well because a zip drive will benefit all of his SCSI Macs, not only the Duos—but again, it has to be a either SCSI Zip drive or a Parallel drive w/a Parallel-to-SCSI cable—I think they made those? It's been a while since SCSI connections were ubiquitous.

That's what I did when I was working on over 20 Powerbooks at one time—no Duos, just my one, but everything from boot-ups, installs, file transfers and any other disk-related tasks were all smooth as silk, with the huge added bonus of a bunch of backups of everything since we all know that any media can fail, that much all of us most painfully know!

Papi, can you list the best you can all of the types of SCSI cables you have and which Macs and/or Powerbooks they plug into?

papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21

I just got this external ultradrive scsi drive called GCC technologies . It came with a scsi cable and im trying to test it on my performa 6116cd. I have no idea how to mount it or even use it. It recognizes it in Apple SC application but i dont know how to mount it

24bit's picture
Offline
Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Do you see this floppy collection? https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/gcc-technologies-ultradrive-diskette-set
Looks like Ultradrive uses its own set of software.

papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21

Thanks for that info. I think thats for a different one mine is 20mb and theres no way i can run system 6 on a ppc performa lol. I tried doing a scan on the performa it says it has bad sectors. Its a Seagate st-225N i was going to back stuff up for the duo

24bit's picture
Offline
Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Wow, thats what I call a Vintage Mac User.
When did I hear last time of a 5.25" MFM hard disk?

Description

How are you going to connect the device to your PB 2300 duo?

papichulo's picture
Offline
Joined: 2018 Feb 21

I have no idea. I think ill just wait until a duo dock comes and i can connect it from there

24bit's picture
Offline
Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Sounds reasonable. Do you already have an Apple HDI-30 to Centronics-50 cable?
Maybe look for a external Apple SCSI ROM too, if your budget allows it.
Installing MacOS 7.6 from a bootable CD will be best for a clean installation.