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YYsMG's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 19

Command and Conquer is available as a freeware download from it's site. I would have thought that one could stay up

amatecha's picture
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Joined: 2010 Mar 10

Innes, no, just because C&C is freely available on their site doesn't necessarily give us permission to redistribute it (depends on what the terms & conditions are on the EA site where the C&C downloads are - it probably says whether it's OK to redistribute)

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

What a greedy clowns!!
(it hurts them to share a little old Mac game)

Now I´m glad ALL MY EA GAMES I own for my PlayStation 2, and PC are Pirated copies I bought in Mexico City

...my favorite is Burnout Takedown tho´

xy's picture
xy
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Joined: 2009 Aug 7

Look at this
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/06/11/eas_new_mac_games_will_dem...

Has anyone thought about that maybe EA has a deal with Apple (as well as Microsoft) to push Intel (and PC) platforms, and that this might be one of the reasons why EA is not interested at all that people play abandware games?!

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

@xy:

That's because of the way Cider works, but also because Apple has officially deprecated PPC (Mac OS X 10.6 doesn't work with PPC at all).

That said, Mac OS X isn't going away anytime soon: Valve recently made Steam available for Mac!

n0's picture
n0
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Joined: 2009 Jun 22

Can we still link to other sites that "illegaly" host these games?

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

@karl128k:

I would say not.

Zarggg's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 9

Now if only EA would provide the 68k Mac versions of their products so that we could legally purchase and use them. I hope I still have my old disks laying around (and that they work with Basilisk).

Really, there should be a requirement that a product is MADE AVAILABLE to the public before removal notices are sent.

xy's picture
xy
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Joined: 2009 Aug 7

amatecha, you are right from the point of view of civil legislation. However, if it comes to public law things might be not that easy because then political interests of common good get involved. Take for instance the public laws of many contries that forbid to export valuable pictures or art. From the point of view of civil law you can do with your Rembrandt whatever you will. From the point of view of public law you cannot. If you have property you are always in some kind of obligation to the common good. And this is where abandonware comes in: Abandonware games are a sort of very fragile art which is endangered to get lost forever because of its ephemeral digital form. So if a company does not take care that its games are preserved and prohibits public access to this form of art it puts itself into a very problematic political situation which might lead to public legislation which forces it to preserve this art. The problem, however, is that gamers do not yet have a big lobby to push for this kind of legislation. The only example I know of so far is the "Piratenpartei" (Pirate Party) in Germany which got quite a lot of votes a few months ago.

xy's picture
xy
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Joined: 2009 Aug 7

Just found out that the Pirate Party movement is an international movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party#Pirate_Party_movement_worldwide

RSK's picture
RSK
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Joined: 2010 Feb 9

@ amatecha--I understand the issues of abandonware and copyright law fairly well. My only problem is that sometimes I hear about a really great game years after it was released. I mostly go to abandonware sites to see what I've missed and to see if the game will work with my current system (which is currently 12 years old; I'm not exactly wealthy). I know a number of times I've bought older software that was still available or re-released, only to find out that it wouldn't work with my machine. I'd rather avoid the waste of money and irritation on my side and find out if it works first.

More often than not, if I really like a game, I seek out a legal version of it, either on eBay or from the company. Only problem is, of course, that I may or may not be able to find a legal copy, either because the game is too old or too rare. In the case of the 1987 game I mentioned, depending on how popular the game was and what platform I'm looking for (Mac, of course), my chances of obtaining a legal copy could be non-existant. So, if I can't find it on an abandonware site, then there is no other way for me to play the game, since the company most likely won't be re-releasing something that old.

The problem with older software is that it's not evergreen like a book. A book you can always read. Old software you may not be able to get to run if you don't have a computer from that era to run it on. I know the copyright laws are there to protect intellectual property, but I don't think it works so well when computers and computer systems change so fast. The other thing being that you can go to a library and borrow a book for a short amount of time to read it if you can't find a copy in the bookstore, but there isn't the same kind of thing for computer games.

I don't know of a good solution to this. The only thing I do know is that as the consumer, I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to older games that I didn't get to hear about until recently.

MCP's picture
MCP
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Joined: 2010 Mar 12

If companies would bundle their old software together on a CD for use with newer machines I'd be first in line to buy it. Take the many Atari/Williams/Midway arcade compilations for example. But it happens so rarely.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

amatecha has summed it up perfectly, but although we must comply with the take-down notice, we can ask repeatedly for them to reconsider inidividual titles.

It would help our case immensely if we had a mission statement that clearly stated the primary aim of the site is to preserve original macintosh software. That is in a format of the original media, optionally with patches also available for download.
What doesn't help us is cracked or patched versions, warez versions - at best just an image of the installed folder, piratebay and other torrent links.

Feel like it's all been said before. There are numerous cases of where we've found original mac software has been re-released by the rights holder and we've immediately removed it from this site (and any mirrors) without any request (or take-down notices) from the distributor. Highlighting these would also help our case.

Bugman's picture
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Joined: 2010 Jun 15

Aw crap WHY WHY WHY didn't I DL System Shock yestreday when I was looking at it?!??

On a contemplative note, game producers could really learn a lot from sites like this. If they put forth the effort, they could get a better idea of what makes good games GOOD, and the sort of staying power that makes folks want to keep playing them even after 10+ years. Too bad that gaming is just as bad as film these days: not really interested in quality content or lasting influence, just worry about the opening weekend sales and to heck with the rest.

[edit] Say, I just noticed that, while they make specific mention of Populous 1 AND 2, there's no specific mention of SimCity 2,000. Does that mean it's still okay to distribute? Wink

iig's picture
iig
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Joined: 2009 Jul 16

Nope, 'fraid not. Sad
EA owns maxis who made simcity 2000 Sad .

On another note, i sure hope M$ doesn't here about this site.
They might make us remove bungie's games!!!!

Bugman's picture
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Joined: 2010 Jun 15

@ nmz502: I know, I was just goofin'. It's just that they spelled out ALL the other games, including SimCity, but left out 2000.

Anyway, if they care, then they should be doing something with the titles.

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

This totally sucks b*lls! There are some seminal games in that list, including the 15 year old (and never resurrected) Future Cop: LAPD. If the morons at EA can't see the positives in open sourcing Future Cop (a FIFTEEN YEAR OLD game), and sending takedown notices instead - I can see only epic fail in their future.

PS. I tried Colin McRae Dirt, and Race Driver: GRID, and THEY ARE THE SAME F*CKING PROGRAM!!!

Try them both if you don't believe me!

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

Also, these copyright laws were not meant to cover computer games, which have a window of interest, about 5 years long (for a top-shelf title), even shorter for lesser titles. How there can be a 25 year coverage of video games is just plainly ridiculous, and begs for a new law to be put in place.

SHiNShU's picture
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Joined: 2010 Apr 15

so now how the hell are we supposed to get a hold of RARE macintosh games that are OBVIOUSLY not available on their site, as they only sell *brand new* games? because lookin on google either turns up pc versions of games or gives a bunch of stupid links that dont go to the games they're supposed to. also factor in that macos 9 doesnt support torrents and most p2p programs not present for os 9 and you see the problem here. this could be solved because ALL mac games should be available on here. what about games like archon and various maxis titles that are no longer available in stores because they're really old? (you know how frustratin it is to go to a store and a game i want is not there because its not brand new?! then some sales person is tryin to sell me some new unrelated game that i dont give a crap about and costs too much anyway!)

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

That's just life. They own it and don't want to sell it, and we have no right to it.

Give it three years, EA will go under or be bought out and we can try again. And there's still plenty of stuff out there not owned by EA. You could spend the intervening time finding out the exact legal position in other countries of which members on the site are located, ie. UK, Germany, Sweden. Is it against the law for them to put up abandonware on an FTP server in their own country ?

xy's picture
xy
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Joined: 2009 Aug 7

I think European contries have pretty much the same or similar copyright laws like the U.S. and all Commonwealth Countries. Try Africa, Vietnam. North Korea, or Cuba.

amatecha's picture
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Joined: 2010 Mar 10

shinshu, grab yourself a copy of KDX. The best p2p available for OS 9, and I know of a server or two with plenty of classic Mac stuff Smile

Temporary Joe's picture
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Joined: 2009 Nov 14

Klik and Play has NO relation to EA. Maxis published K&P for the PC but doesn't hold rights to it. The Mac version wasn't published by Maxis. Another company holds the rights to it (Clickteam).

iig's picture
iig
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Joined: 2009 Jul 16

Thats what i thought. I'll re-upload it later(granted i can find it!).

Harrymatic's picture
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Joined: 2010 Jan 3

Phew, good job I already had them all downloaded and saved to disks Smile
Still, I really dont see what EA's grudge is with distribution of certainly the older titles like SimCity. They're never going to make another penny from that software anyway.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Well, I'm not so sure. Original SimCity for iPad would go down a treat. iPad sales has the right social demographics for all the old titles, ie. they're nearly all 40+ wealthy with a large number of years of computer use, so it may be they have fond memories of the original SimCity, or SimCity 2000 (but of course, laying those damned water pipes was hard enough with a mouse in SC2K anyway, dread to think what it would be like with an iPad).

But most of the other EA titles, you're right, the concept and gameplay wouldn't just cut it today. Still, they hold the rights and don't want to give them up. I still think we could do more to persuade them to enter into some discussion about hosting the software, perhaps with some micro-payment like a few cents, all going to EA, or if we hosted their ads.

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

nmz502 wrote:
Thats what i thought. I'll re-upload it later(granted i can find it!).

If you can edit the page, no need to re-upload, just to revert to an earlier version of the page.
Wink

Bertyboy wrote:
I still think we could do more to persuade them to enter into some discussion about hosting the software, perhaps with some micro-payment like a few cents, all going to EA, or if we hosted their ads.

Yeah, if they could go with us doing so, that would be great.

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

This plays in the same Championship League as Settlers 2, Strategic Conquest and Minitorian, which all has been requested to be removed, at the time the old MacGarden site was active.
Though, those removements are still valid, even.

madmax2069's picture
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Joined: 2010 May 17

Sorry but they can have you take down the games but not the screenshots you made of the said game or the pictures you have taken of your game's box, this falls under fair use, They are out of line demanding you take down the pictures.

This site is NOT selling the games nor selling any of the in game screenshots nor game box pictures. EA can cry all they want but the pictures they can do nothing about (unless they took them). look at the many review sites and videos people had made, or on ebay ?. Most companies try to go against the fair use law.

ditch the software and keep the pictures.

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

Fast, get PC games from 'Electronic Arts' before Home Of The Underdogs have to take them down, too.
There is no statement yet, but who knows whether they'll find this, too

MadMac's picture
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Joined: 2010 Mar 20

EA Games dont have a single clue of what is that thing called ¨indirect promotion¨.
They have to think about macintoshgarden as a huge archive of antecedents about their games, because (let be honest) do you think that they going to get any profit today selling this games? They are all mac games, for plataforms already too old to be on market, or represent a profit loss.

Things like this act of stupidity makes piracy grow and grow.

Instead of pointing this games as some illegal uploads, would be better to make new versions of them, for today´s macs... then, ill probably buy some, cos i have played their old versions...

Think Different EA...

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

Electronic Arts Confirms It Sells Its Stake In Ubisoft

CyberMonkey's picture
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Joined: 2009 Sep 27

We need to accept the consequence that as mac garden grows in popularity, it's going to attract negative attention from the original game makers. This letter from EA is a prime example. I remember that the original Mac Garden got a C&D letter for hosting Dark Castle and other Delta Tao games on the original Mac Garden website.

I think it's best that we just take them down and not land ourselves in any possible legal action. EA is a large firm and upon saying they'll have no problem hiring powerful lawyers to defend their case. Our chances of defending our side of the case in a court hearing will *not* stand up if something goes pear-shaped for us. It's just not worth the risk!

Screenshots that we post can be used under fair rights (like Wikipedia does) so long as sufficient credit is given to the original author of the material. However, like it or not and whether or not it's for non-profit/personal use we don't actually have rights to distribute the once commercial material in such a manner.

As for the search engines and archive.org comments, maybe we should set up a "robots.txt" file for this site so we can moderate more carefully what does and doesn't get picked up by search engines.

To sum up:
Yes, this does suck that this has happened, but for the sake of Mac garden's future and/or a mud slinging match between us and EA, just take them down.

My $0.02

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

Yeah, a robots.txt which deactivates everything (just to be sure) would be a fine addition to this site. Smile

Maxor127's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 4

Personally, I think you should ignore them. They're just using scare tactics and obviously don't know what they're talking about. Doing a quick google search, I see popular DOS abandonware sites still have their EA downloads up and running.

The way I look at it, if they still sell and support a game, then fine. But the reality is no one except 0.01% olf computer users come here to find hard to find and even harder to emulate Mac games. And I could maybe see an argument for games like the Sims or even SimCity. But Legend of Kyrandia? Come on... At most, I think you should've removed the games they mentioned and nothing else. Make them prove ownership. In fact, I'd like to see them prove that they lost a penny from anyone downloading 10+ year old pre-Mac OS X games.

HughMungus's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 12

a taste of their own medicine? >: )

http://www.wired.com/playbook/2010/08/ea-madden-lawsuit/

MFoxer's picture
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Joined: 2010 Feb 12

No, not the simulators Sad. Why? Anything but the simulators.

It's just EA being EA now.

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

a taste of their own medicine? >: )

NFL Players Lawsuit

Heh; Good for NFL Laughing out loud

Erm... dumb question, but is there a link to an easily accessible list of EA games that are not considered abandonware?

IIGS_User's picture
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Erm... dumb question, but is there a link to an easily accessible list of EA games that are not considered abandonware?

Are there any? Wink

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7
Erm... dumb question, but is there a link to an easily accessible list of EA games that are not considered abandonware?

Are there any? Wink

I'd really meant to ask if there was a list of what was an "EA" game and not suitable as being an abandonware candidate. An alternative list of what as was generally considered to be actual EA games, would likely be just as acceptable. Sorry for my previous lame-arsed poorly elucidated question.

iig's picture
iig
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Erm... dumb question, but is there a link to an easily accessible list of EA games that are not considered abandonware?

Are there any? Wink

There are No games by EA that are considered abandonware(except (maybe) C&C).
If you want to find some of the EA games that are Not considered abandonware(by EA at least) i know of a couple places to look Wink .

One Word; KDX

MadMac's picture
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Joined: 2010 Mar 20

Humm, thinking twice and reading it again... i have receive spam mail more convincent.

I say, check the identity of that Karen Jessop, her relation with EA. Maybe this is bullsh*t.

•Has somebody already contact or been contacted from EA?

I mean, we need words from somebody (real) inside EA before acting like monkeys on the run.
Not a supposed phantom menace of what could happen if we disobey.

We re not piratebay.
What we do here is more like collecting old books for a public library.

And we need a public official letter from EA to act, not this.

Inside this URL is the mail where we need to mail our questions, not to post complains here:

http://www.ea.com/2/legal-notices

SwedeBear's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

As I´ve written before here I´m with you MadMac. A simple response to the original mail with a request of confirming sender's identity and then see what´s returned. That should be the starting point for actions from our/MG's side.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

It's amazing what you cn find on Google / Facebook / Twitter about people. Look her up.

Daxeria's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

She is definitely legitimate. Here she is in conversation with other EA representatives about their anti-BitTorrent strategy. (Scroll down to the bottom.)

SwedeBear's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

Nope. I won´t look her up. I´m more interested in where the mail came from originally than the name in the message at the bottom. Wink

iig's picture
iig
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Joined: 2009 Jul 16

So i emailed the email address listed in the message and i have got no reply(i emailed when this topic was started). I've emailed EA's Legal Department and they sent me this message:

Thank you for contacting Electronic Arts. The copyright@ea.com e-mail address is only for inquiries about the removal of allegedly infringing content from EA’s websites and online services. Unrelated messages will be deleted and no response will be sent.
Please use one of the websites or e-mail addresses listed below for other inquiries.
Thank you,
Electronic Arts Inc.
Permission Requests
Requests for permission to use EA materials should be directed to permissionrequests@ea.com.
Piracy
To report piracy of EA games, contact piracy@ea.com.

i think we should try the 3rd email address (Permission Requests).
EDIT:Emailed EAs Permission Request and we'll see what they say Smile .

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

If I was able to see the full original email with headers, I probably could determine whether or not it's valid.

Temporary Joe's picture
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Joined: 2009 Nov 14

We should have verified before asking permission.

iig's picture
iig
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Joined: 2009 Jul 16

As I said i wrote them an email and i didn't get a response.
Maybe if Balrog wrote an email(originating for mac garden) we'd get a response Smile .