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Joined: 2009 Nov 14
Audio Partitions: Help?

I'm uploading a CD, and it has an audio partition. How do I include the whole CD in the .toast image?

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Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

Toast isn't designed to handle those sort of discs. That's why there are so many audio-less images out there. I recommend SimplyBurns for copying mixed-mode discs with audio. The resulting image can be burned in OS X, Windows and Linux, but NOT in OS9 and earlier.

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

I believe Toast has two modes: in one mode it images everything, but in the other it ignores the audio partition. I'll have to test this out though...

Northcott's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 15

The major problem is finding a program to image the whole disc, partition map and all rather than simply imaging a particular mounted volume. Such a program is difficult if not impossible to find in OS 9... Sad

bertyboy's picture
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Hoping Balrog can find how to get Toast to do the whole disc in a single image. Some of us have tried the BIN/CUE format, which would support extracting the audio and data together, which Toast can produce, but it seems to just extract the Mac data part when we try.

Up to now, those of us that make the effort, use Toast to also create an Audio partition disc image, usually seen as a .sd2f.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

Under OS X there´s Firestarter FX which handles complete copies of a device, which is what we are looking for in this case. However it´s OS X and the resulting image is a BIN/TOC pair.
Older Toast versions could make device copy, even from CD-ROMs, IIRC.
I´m not sure if ShrinkWrap is worth mentioning here with it´s non-standard image format.
Looking forward read Balrog's results. Smile

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

Ok, made a quick test here. Toast 4.2 under OS 7.5.5 made a complete image copy, including audio part, of 'Carmageddon'. When I mounted the image in Toast it recognized the audio part with the data part.
Seems to be a recomendable solution.

If you´ve got a classic Mac, that is.

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

What option did you use for that SwedeBear? I tried Disc Copy in Toast 4.2. It read in the data and audio tracks but when I saved it out as a disc image it only copied the data track.

I prefer SimplyBurns over Firestarter FX but they're both just frontends for cdrdao. Which makes images made with either burnable on many systems.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

I choosed 'Disk Copy' and clicked 'Data' where I got the choices of connected devices, ie the hard disks and CD-ROM connected to the SCSI buses. Choosed the CD-ROM and 'Save as Disk Image'.

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

Same here but it only saved out the data track (in 9.2.2). Does Carmageddon mount as two volumes on the desktop? Descent mounts seperate "Descent" and "Audio CD" volumes.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

Nope, as the audio part isn´t closed [if I understand the technique of 'Mixed Mode' correctly] it only mounts the data part but the cd-player still can read as it doesn´t care about closed/open sessions.

Is your 'Descent' original media?
Do you have another system version to try the copying under? I did this with OS 7.5.5 and it *might* make a diff to 9.2.2

I´ll have a go at copying multi-session disk with this settings as your disk behaves like one of that kind.

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

Yep it's an original disc. I tried it in 7.6.1 and it only mounted the Descent volume on the desktop. Did a Disc Copy with Toast 4.2 but again it only saved out the data part (it's easy to tell because the toast file is only about 200mb).

When I loaded the toast file back into Toast (Disc Image window), it listed the audio tracks. But when I clicked on the Audio button and tried to play any of them, it asked for the CD containing them.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

Try to mount that image to play audio instead of playing from inside of Toast. Or if you have the possibility (hi MVP) burn it. I had the same result when I tried to play the audio part from within Toast.
Else; I did this with SCSI devices, assume you´re working with that too.

Protocol 7's picture
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The toast image is only about 200mb and there's 13 audio tracks on the CD I can't see how it could actually contain any audio (I checked the original CD and the data track is about 200mb). A bin/toc image with SimplyBurns is over 700mb.

I mounted the image again in Toast and now it just shows a data track. Maybe because I've removed the original CD.

When you mount your Carmageddon toast image have you removed the CD? It sounds like it could be playing the audio from the original CD.

I still reckon SimplyBurns is the best way to do this.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

Well, it does play from the CD when I run the game, but, as you say with the CD mounted. It´s just so weird we´re not getting the same results.
And SimplyBurns see the complete device but copies only the first session. Liquid CD (OS X) sees also the whole device; data and audio tracks, but will not make an image. Only copy to the real thing. Trying Dragon Burn at the mo but it only saves out in it´s own format. :/
My bet is still Firestarter FX. Even more if there´s a TOC-to-CUE to be found…

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

What´s left as another way (and a pretty awkward one) is to archive in one audio part and one data part. This also means you have to burn them on one piece in order to get full function.

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

Toc2cue doesn't work when audio is involved because of endian-ness issues.

When you try SimplyBurns are you going Rip Disc -> Rip Complete Disc (with "Raw" checked)? That works for me. There's only one session on the disc but that contains the audio tracks.

The reason I prefer SB over Firestarter FX is when I run FX it shows both Descent volumes (data and audio), while SB shows the device. But both will output the same bin/toc file so it's all good.

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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

Ok. I´ll have to take that back about SB only copying first session. Either did I confuse the machine with all copying tests or meself. Wink
Agree it´s a matter of taste between FS or SB unless one of them have a cunning trick up their sleeve. Would be nice with some sort of universal format though; possible to do and read under X/Classic/Win.

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

Well, I think using "sessions" confuses things a bit. Really we're talking about "tracks". Most CDs will only have one session and that contains the data and audio tracks.

I don't think there's any format that will work in Classic as well. There are ways to handle CDs with audio but that usually involves ripping the tracks seperately and putting them back together in Toast when burning. Having a complete image that just needs burning works better for me, and from an archival point of view is preferable.

Still, BIN/TOC working in X/Windows/Nix is pretty good. Just because we want to play the game in Classic doesn't mean we have to be able to burn it there too. I think most people here have at least one newer machine. And in my case I only have one Classic machine with a burner. The rest are all CD/DVD readers.

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

I wonder if http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/astarte-cd-copy is any useful.

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

It extracts the tracks seperately. You then have to reconstruct the disc as Multitrack CD-ROM XA in Toast.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Mmm, I didn't want to get away from Toast images, albeit that it requires a Mac that can run Toast.

If users have only a CD-ROM drive or no optical drive (rather than CD-R / CD-RW) then they can still play the game, alas without the included audio.
If users want to burn a CD, on Windows say, it'll be up to their burning software to be able to burn a 'Mixed-Mode' CD. Using Toast on the Mac, they will still be able to mount and extract the audio - it's just AIFF files in the .sd2f image files - and use the Toast image as an ISO. Then re-combine both on Windows. There's no question of requiring to mount the Mac HFS data part (on the .toast image) on Windows. It will be burnt as the first audio track "as-is".

BIN/CUE would be ideal, it holds the Data and Audio parts in a single file, but I can't find a sure way of creating these in OSX. Toast 5 can mount and burn these perfectly, maybe Toast 4 an too (I only had the OEM version, and I bought Toast 5 Titanium pretty much straight away so I can't remember).

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

toast images are basically the same as raw iso images of the whole device (or, should be).

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Anyone know if it differs what device you´re copying, ie SCSI or ATAPI? I have somewhere back in my head the idea that device copy can only be done with SCSI…?

Balrog's picture
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Device copy is possible with ATAPI too. I've done it without any issues.

Protocol 7's picture
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@bertyboy: BIN/TOC and BIN/CUE are laid out differently but the concept is the same: a raw dump of the disc and a textual TOC listing which tells the burner the format of each track and the disc layout. In OS X you can use Firestarter FX or SimplyBurns to make a BIN/TOC.

I'm uploading a bin/toc rip of Descent now made with SimplyBurns so feel free to try it out when it's ready.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

BIN/TOC, fine, but can users with only Toast 5 use them to either mount the game part, or burn a physical CD with it ?

I use OSX 10.3.9 out of choice, so SimplyBurns is already not available to me (OK I can boot into OSX 10.4 if I wanted, or use my Mac Pro). My point is that it has to be usable by most of the OS's even if we have to boot into a later OS to produce it.

Protocol 7's picture
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I doubt Toast will handle it right. It's bin/cue support seems limited to data tracks only. But if you want to try and report back that would be great.

MissingMediaBurner support starts at 10.1 so you should be able to burn with that (it uses the same cdrdao engine). I'll add app links to the post when the upload is done (another hour I reckon). Files are up.

Protocol 7's picture
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If you're looking for a OS9 option, NTI Dragon Burn is able to image and copy mixed-mode CDs. However images created in the OS9 version aren't recognised in the OS X version, and vice-versa.

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

@Protocol 7 wrote:

...NTI Dragon Burn is able to image and copy mixed-mode CDs. However...

Yes it does indeed, just tried it out on my Descent CD and it makes a file about 700 MBs in size.

Caveat:
Dragon Burn does not recognise my Apple supported, Pioneer DVR-RW/CD-RW as being a "CD" burner. It only sees it as a CD-ROM read-only device Sad

No DVD support either.

Tried both the uploaded version from here and the newer version you placed a link to - So can't test the created mixed-mode image to see if it works while DB won't recognise my burner Puzzled

I'm staying with Toast on OS 9 to create sep. audio and CD image files if I need to store mixed mode CD images (I have only a couple so its no biggie)...

MCP's picture
MCP
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"MissingMediaBurner support starts at 10.1" Except that it's in a zip file that can't be opened with anything less than OS 10.3!! Tired

Protocol 7's picture
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@MCP: I just going by what he said on his site. But it seems he doesn't actually have a link to the older 0.2 version that supports 10.1. I did manage to find 0.4 on an old CD (and it's a stuffit archive) so you can try that: http://www.multiupload.com/22O90932E8

@MikeTomTom: I only have one Classic machine with a burner (G3 iBook) and Dragon Burn recognised it. I just put it up for people insistent on using OS9, but as it uses a proprietary image format that can only be burned by itself (and only in OS9) I'd still recommend any of the OS X solutions I mentioned earlier.

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

@Protocol 7: and does your iBook have a DVD/CD burner combo? Which is my problem with this software. No matter tho', there's more than one way to make an ISO - just appears to be a little difficult on Mac OS 9.x or earlier Santa

Protocol 7's picture
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Yep it's a Sony combo drive.

Euryale's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jul 22

I´ve succesfully done it using Alcohol 120% (yes, under Windows)
and it images the whole CD including Audio and it works..

see, it´s ALWAYS good to have a spare $20 Windows machine,
I really wonder Why so many people still refuses to use Windows sometimes,
it doesn´t hurt.
it´s just another piece of software.

Vitoarc's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 15

it´s just another piece of software.

True, and I do use Windows when I need to. I just always feel so dirty afterwards. Big smile

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

I'd be that way inclined too. Plus Alcohol can make bin/cue which are more common than the unixy bin/toc.

Any way that can make a single image file with audio is good for me. While it's better than no audio, I'm not keen on the idea of ripping seperate tracks and rebuilding them in Toast. Just doesn't feel like a "proper" copy.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Willing to try Alcohol 120% under XP, Is it commercial software ? or shareware ? I can try under Virtual PC, Parallels Desktop and BootCamp if I have to.

Protocol 7's picture
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Alcohol 52% has a free edition. Lacks burning, but it's fine for making images. I don't know how well it will work in a virtual machine (depends on how the VM accesses the host CD device) but there should be no hassle in bootcamp.

MikeTomTom's picture
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Joined: 2009 Dec 7

I use ImgBurn on Windows for making ISOs of all of my Mac CDs these days. I also use it to burn those ISOs back to CD/DVD for backups - even bootable Mac OS System Disks. ImgBurn is freeware and is excellent.