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YYsMG's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 19
Any suggestions for getting Appletalk to work?

I have two macs wired together with a Hub but they seem unable to notice each other
Just wondering if anyone is able to make a suggestion as to why this might be, G3 powerbook runs 9.1, Powermac G3 runs 9.2.2. The only tip i got from the apple site was to bin the appletalk prefs and zap the PRAM but it didn't work.

The router is operational, it connected the Powerbook to an iBook via appletalk very well so my assumption is the problem is the Powermac.

Appletalk is active on both, if anyone is interested in suggesting something but needs more information, i can provide

Thanks in advance

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LimeiBook86's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 23

Make sure AppleTalk is using Ethernet on both sides? Make sure OpenTransport is updated and so on. Also ensure File Sharing is enabled if that's what you'd like to do.

Can any of the Macs see each other in the Chooser? Good luck!

Thundersock's picture
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Joined: 2010 May 20

Specify where the connection mode in the Appletalk panel.

YYsMG's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 19

Connection method for both machines are set on built in Ethernet
Open transport is version 2.7.9

altho something strange ive just noticed, opening the network browser on the PowerMac seems to crash it. Secondly, it bleeps a message after a while after every boot saying file transfer activation has failed. Could it be that its trying to find a legacy network from its days as a graphics workstation. I will delete the preferences file for file sharing and appletalk, anything else that might be beneficial?

Thundersock's picture
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Joined: 2010 May 20

Are you sure both Ethernets are working?

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Trash the "Users and Groups Data File" on each, and make sure the two Macs have unque names, then restart.

The U & G Data File contains the unique AppleTalk ID, and if you've copied the OS9 System Folder from one Mac to the other, they'll be the same and you'll get something about not being able to start File Sharing at boot.

themacmeister's picture
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Joined: 2009 Oct 26

Sounds like corrupt filesharing prefs?!

When I read AppleTalk, I thought you meant the old PhoneTalk style cables that needed termination Smile

Farallon? PhoneTalk?

YYsMG's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 19

Deleted everything suggested on both machines however it hasn't helped

I've also replaced the ethernet cables, one wasn't holding a solid light on the hub but it does now

Something i have noticed however, the laptop has given itself an IP address however the Powermac has not, might that be significant?

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Something i have noticed however, the laptop has given itself an IP address however the Powermac has not, might that be significant?

In OSX this would be significant, but OS9 (and before) is terrible for starting TCP/IP after a boot, you had to start an app or game that forced TCP/IP / AppleTalk access, to get TCP/IP to get an address. AppleTalk wasn't as bad, but you needed to ensure AppleTalk was set to Active. having File Sharing on at boot should be enough to start AppleTalk.

I think TCP/IP also has a setting like "Turn on only when needed" checkbox in the TVP/IP control panel (Options... button, bottom right), make sure it is not checked, and of course, make sure it's set to Active also. You may need to change the User Mode Level in AppleTalk and TCP/IP control panels to "Intermediate" to get access to all of this (from memory, the User Mode is set from the Edit menu - definitely the wrong place for it).
The "Turn on only when needed" setting doesn't stop you needing to get a TCP/IP process to get things started. I had real nightmares trying to host LAN Diablo II games on OS9, TCP/IP would keep stopping and no-one could find the game server, even with fixed IP addresses. OS9 Grrrr.

Is the TCP/IP address self-assigned ? ie. 169.x.x.x, or assigned by the router ? ie. 192.168.x.x or 10.x.x.x .
Or do you use a simple hub, rather than a router ? This would mean that you would have to manually assign the IP addresses in TCP/IP.

Aside from the PMG3 not having an auto-sensing Ethernet port, so it needs a patch cable rather than a cross-over cable to go into the hub / router, I have something in the back of my mind from Apple Discussions many years ago that the PMG3 was a real nightmare to get the TCP/IP up and consistently active.

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

Have you got a Mac OS install cd? Anything from 8.5.1 up should boot a PMG3. If so, boot from that and try to connect over AppleShare (after selecting Ethernet in the AppleTalk control panel). If that works then you know there's something wrong with the installed system. If it still doesn't connect then it may be a hardware problem.

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

I have an Intel PC with an Gigabit LAN on board and could never connect it to my iMac G3 with 10Mbit.
I had to install a 10/100 Mbit PCI card to make it work with PC-Mac Lan. I am no expert, but could there be some signaling problem between the Macs and the hub?
Can you check your connection with a crossover cable?

I apologize for my dumb suggestions, but did you dedicate a shared volume or drive on the Mac that is supposed to act as AppleTalk server?

YYsMG's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 19

The laptop's IP is a self assigned 169 beginning, below this i also have some figures for the subnet mask, router address (same as IP) and name server address. This is under the 'using dhcp server' option in the TCP/IP control panal.

On the grounds that the problem probably lies in the Power Mac, is there a way i can get the PowerBook to confirm that it can see the Router through the ethernet cable?

I'm going to completely wipe and re-install the system software on the PowerMac now, theres nothing important on it anyway

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Self-assigned doesn't really help either. So it looks like your "router" is actually only a hub. Not an issue, but you don't get DHCP from it.

Change both Macs to have manually assigned. Set one to IP Address 192.168.0.2, the other to 192.168.0.3. Set SubNet Mask to 255.255.255.0 o both. Leave Router blank, or if it complains, set it to 192.168.0.2.
How are you going to connect the two to the internet ? You won't be able to use dial-up while they are connected to each other. If you're going to end up connecting these to your broadband router, you can switch both Macs back to DHCP. If you're connecting them to your broadband router already, then there is an issue with Ethernet on both the Macs.

If you still have issues with the Macs after the wipe and install, let us know the make and model of your router, we'll see if there's something funny as to why it's not serving DHCP. Is there anything else attached to the router ?

YYsMG's picture
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Joined: 2009 Aug 19

Nah, the two computers won't be connected to the net, the Netgear router/hub thingy is just for a local network

Bit of progress here, the light for the PowerMac's connection with the router has started blinking when i ask it to perform a network function, still cant complete it but i think i can rule out what i was fearing in that the ethernet port was broken.
I've given the computers the manual values, no immediate problems

A little error i'm getting on the network browser, 'The NSL Plugin "SLP Plugin" could not be loaded"'. I'll see if i can find what its on about

YYsMG's picture
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Just tried a few different things to see if they can now communicate, no joy, and the Powermac then spat out a 'file sharing failed' notice.

The hub itself has been used before to connect two OS9 machines working well until one of them crashed ^_^, its a Netgear ASDL2+ Modem Router DG834G v4.

The control panel notes that the subnet mask that you suggested BertyBoy is 'unusual', says it doesn't repeat all the way through.

Anyhoo, many thanks for all your help so far, wouldn't have gotten this far without it

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

That's the exact same modem/router I have. I've had Appleshare working between a 7500 (7.6) and a iBook (9.2.2) just fine. With DHCP. Check the router settings and see if DHCP is enabled (Advanced->Lan IP Setup->Use Router as DHCP Server)

Otherwise if you find you have to enter the details manually, the only thing that looks a bit off in Bertyboy's post is the router should be set to 192.168.0.1, not .2

YYsMG's picture
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Right, partial progress. Nipped into the specified router settings and checked that box. The netgear recognizes the PowerMac and has reserved it it's IP, but it won't recognize the PowerBook. The ethernet port that it is plugged into lights up its LED to show its physically connected but constantly blinks. Is it perhaps unable to acquire certain settings? Going to nip onto the routers documentary site and see what the blinking means

YYsMG's picture
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Blinking apparently just means data is being transferred, so its chatting but won't show up.

So i've got one machine not necessarily communicating but being recognized, and the other communicating but not being recognized. Any ideas where i should go from here team?

24bit's picture
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Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Do you have another computer, that you can set up as Apple Talk server?
Even an old Windows machine with PC-Mac LAN might do, to check the connectivity.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Woohoo, excellent progress. Ironically, same (OK slightly later) router that I use (I have the v1, upgraded as far as it can go, to v3).

Set TCP/IP back to DHCP (from Manually). And test each individually.
With regard to manually setting the Router IP address to 192.168.0.2, it looked like there was no contact
whatsoever with the actual router, so a router address of 192.168.0.1 would just have slowed (REALLY) everything down while your Mac timed out looking for 192.168.0.1.
The subnet mask, 255.255.255.0 is perfect for small LANs, it means that eveyr other computer whose IP address begins 192.168.0.x is considered on the same LAN. When you set TCP/IP back to DHCP it should automatically be set to just that.

Does the light on the port for each flash orange or green. Orange is a 10mbit connection, Green is a 100mbit connection.

Being unable to load the SLP Plugin can be a problem, it's the Service Location Protocol engine, that you need to locate AppleShare servers on your LAN. Do both Macs get that error, or just one of them ?
It's not the end of the world, you can always use the Chooser instead (I always hated the Network Browser, it proved too unreliable and crashed more often than not), and key the IP address of the other Mac into the box at the bottom.

Do the Macs have different names ? (In Sharing Control Panel)

Have you set it so File Sharing clients can connect over TCP/IP, it's a checkbox in either the TCP/IP control panel or the File Sharing control panel ?

Going back to that "File Sharing could not be started" error. When you erase and install the OS, is it from a retail install disc ? Or are you copying it from another Mac (OK, even though you have no network activity) ? I've only seen this error when the System Folder has been copied from one Mac to another.

Open the AppleTalk control panels when each is connected to the router. Tell us the Network and Node IDs that come up on each,

YYsMG's picture
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All connections to the Netgear register as green, including this G4 that i've been using to access the thing's preferences
Both macs seem to get the SLP error, now i consider it a step up for the Powermac, before restoring the entire thing it would simply crash.
Both computers have different names
The connect over TCP/IP checkbox in file-sharing is indeed checked
The installations of 9.0.4 are from a retail disk

More info to follow as i find it out

YYsMG's picture
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Both Macs have the same Appletalk values, i should also mention they have been restored with the same copy of System 9

Node 128 - Network 65280 (Range 0 to 65534) - Open Transport/Appletalk 2.6.1 - Appletalk Driver 61.0 - Macintosh Address 65280.128

The hardware addresses obviously differ

YYsMG's picture
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Right, something interesting has happened

Switching from manual to DHCP has resulted with the PowerMac finding its previous values that were manually keyed in

The Powerbook on the other hand has produced the following

IP - 169.254.207.182
Subnet Mask - 255.255.0.0
Router Address - 169.254.207.182

Name Server Address - 239.255.255.251

My first thought was that it somehow found information from its OSX side about the BT Homehub that manages the online computers but i've checked these values from the ones regarding it and there are no matches

bertyboy's picture
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Grrr. That's the PowerBook back to a self-assigned IP address.

I now wonder if it's something with the router (checking how it looks on mine) ....
configure it from the PMG4. Apologies now if my questions assume that your knowledge is limited, I doubt it is, but some questions I just have to ask).
Under "Advanced" in the pane on the left is the "LAN IP Setup". From the top ...
IP Address should be 192.168.0.1
IP Subnet Mask should be 255.255.255.0 (like already mentioned).
Use Router as DHCP Server should be checked (think you already confirmed this).
Starting IP Address should be something like 192.168.0.2
Ending IP Address should be something like 192.168.0.254 (well as long as it's not a very low number).
Under that you may have some address reservations, as long as they all fall into the range set above and leave plenty of free IP Addresses to use.

Ironic that you ue a BT Home Hub 2 as your main router and keep the Netgear for a spare. I did the exact opposite, BT Hubs been in the box since it arrived (and the 2 BT Home Hubs before that too before I sold them on eBay) while the Netgear hasn't been switched off in over 5 years.

YYsMG's picture
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The figures are at those values, i would hazard a guess tho that the router is fine, it picks up connections from the PowerBook G4 & Powermac. I've tried switching the IP of the Powerbook G3 to various numbers under manual to see if it picks it up but that doesn't help either.

I'm not sure why the Homehub is being used as the main router but its broadly down to BT's service compatibility rather than capabilities of the hardware. Best not to tamper with its specified setup i thought, if the service stops working (and its happened a few times) its usually hell on earth to sort it out. 20 min tedious phone-call which inevitably ends up with them sending an engineer out who just replaces the perfectly functional hub with a different one that after a few months comes a cropper of the same problem.

bertyboy's picture
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Just a quick thing to try. The two having the same Node ID is bothering me. I don't think they should be the same.

Can you fire up the PowerMac and start the network access, ie. I used to start Internet Explorer, ie. get it "warmed up".
Then start up the PowerBook, and start IE (or whatever).

From my (old) understanding of AppleTalk, the node and network ids are stored in PRAM, when it starts up it scans the network to see if Node Id is already in use. If it finds it is, it generates another one and tries that. Node Ids should be between 1 and 253 (0 is self, 255 is broadcast, 254 is Apple internal).

hang on, I'll shut up and let Apple do the talking ...

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3034?viewlocale=en_US

YYsMG's picture
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just found netscape on the PowerMac and accessed the netgears setup through the Powermac, tried it on the powerbook and it couldn't find it. The problem is definitely there. Will zap its PRAM and report back

YYsMG's picture
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Pram zap has given Powerbook a new node and network number but it still fails to communicate with the netgear.

Very strange and i'm now wondering if its a problem with the ethernet port
Going to install the airport driver and see if i can get any joy from that

YYsMG's picture
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Right, its sorted! Fully functional! It seems to be a duff ethernet port on the PowerBook's side. Airport has connected it fine to the netgear.

This whole process must have seen us deal with one of every type of appletalk problem, originally it was the PowerMac that wasn't operating properly. Thanks for all the suggestions from everyone, its all been a big big help, wouldn't have found it all out anywhere else i reckon

Thundersock's picture
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I've had that exact problem with a Cube of mine, AirPorts FTW.

Protocol 7's picture
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Joined: 2010 Aug 7

Glad to hear you got it sorted. Even if it did mean discovering your Peebee's port is borked...

bertyboy's picture
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I'm not so sure it's bust. I'd try other cables (like the one used for the PowerMac, other ports in the router, all the buttons in TCP/IP control panel, trash all the prefs and try again, maybe even another wipe and install. Even a power down (battery out) overnight. I'd also try cleaning the Ethernet port contacts, maybe inserting and removing an Ethernet plug 20 times. If it's been unused for a long time, the contacts become tarnished and you get a bad connection. Same is true of the modem port, and in desktops, extremely true for PCI slots - in 10 year old Macs cards sometimes need to be fitted and removed 3 or 4 times to get a good contacts. Same for the PCI cards themselves, first trick is to take a pencil eraser over them all.
Not saying do that with the Ethernet contacts, but they may need to see plenty of activity before working again. And I'm sure you'll appreciate the 100mbit/s over the 11mbit/s you may get on AirPort.

Thundersock's picture
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Thanks bertyboy for that advice, I'll see if that helps my busted connection.