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SwedeBear's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 18
Am I Whining/Beeing Unfair/Picking?

Well, be the judge here. Wink
I´m having a bit of a problem with DOS games wrapped with the DOSBox app into a self-running package. These are not seldom advertised as Macintosh Games in several places. As a 'Mac Games Archaelogist' this is rather confusing and sometimes truly irritating. Better declare them as 'Wrapped Games for OSX' as there are some (one?) other way to make similar packages.
This may not be of bigger interest to those (lucky) people owning an Intel Mac as their first machine. There´s no difference between the gaming world of DOS and 68k/PPC; they´re equally hard/impossible to run on the new HW. So, it's all emulator files or ROMs from that view, which seems to be shared by an increasing number.
But shouldn´t the 'Garden' keep a distance to what else but games for the 68k/PPC architecture and the Mac OSes from 9 and counting backwards? I´m not starting a flame war or else here, but the DOS/Win gamers have an ocean of abandonware/old tech/emulator sites to scope from but the Mac side is rather scarse, I´m afraid.
So; my question is, should the site keep to the stringent view with 68k/PPC stuff only, as the original 'Garden', with a friendly eye and chat 'over the fence', but no more?

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SwedeBear's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

And this should of course been published under the 'This Website'-topic. Of course!

IIGS_User's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 8

I don't think it's OK to add DOSBox wrapped games here.

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

Please make a list of any such games that might be here. Emulators that run on Mac hardware are fine though.
I also like to see apps as well, not just games! Smile

SwedeBear's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

@ Balrog: No, I haven´t looked around here but I´ve seen it at places with a wider stance to accessibility Wink
This place seems just the place to air my thoughts and get a relevant response.
But especially with the emulators, except Bas/SS/vMac that is, my first thought might be a fresh topic any day; as you can run an foreign environment, why not include the executables for that environment.
Better off to give alternative like ScummVM, which is done here, to the games where it applies. Smile

MacWise's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 29

No you're not being unfair. That topic was already discussed over the google group and everybody said it was wrong. I also don't like wrapped games because they don't keep up with newer versions of DOSBox. Download many of these ready-to-go packages and you'll end up with several old copies of the same application in your computer. No thank you! I rather setup things myself.

Maedi's picture
Maedi (not verified)

Admittedly I've only skimmed over this thread but let me just say that I think giving people more access to these games is a good thing. Do you want the site to be a museum, where only a select few know how to setup an emulator/have an old mac, and can play (probably around 1% of the population will know how to use an emulator) ...or a facilitator to get classic games working for anyone on any system. Though I'd assume that you guys are all on macs, don't forget that people on Windows and Linux (40% according to the stats) are visiting this website and looking to play a classic on their system. We do have to cater for them.

'Wrapped Games for OSX' is fine. Mention that it's not the original, but let anyone play it without hassle.

should the site keep to the stringent view with 68k/PPC stuff only, as the original 'Garden', with a friendly eye and chat 'over the fence', but no more?

Keep it open, always keep it open. I think people only want to upload games on here that where made for the mac, but that can be modern Intel abandonware too.

SwedeBear's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 18

@ Maedi: Ah, but the point with a museum is to share the knowledge. I don´t see this place as a closed community, on the contrary; the more to take part in and of it, the better. But the content should, IMHO, be stringent, ie here only for/from the 68k/PPC architecture, still IMHO.

The 'Mac Intel abandonware scene', if I catch your meaning, is still waiting to be declared as abandonware. To early and and it could slide away towards the w@rez scene.

As you point out people come here for the Mac stuff, no matter what HW/system you´re on, obviously wanting to run that stuff be it on appropriate vintage HW or emulation. To mix it with what can be dl:ed from 100/1000:s of other sites, could be to let the site 'fade into the grey haze of mediocracy'.

We have unique sources, often with the following knowledge and we have a unique place/name, so please, keep it to what the back of the box says, if I may say so. Smile

kataetheweirdo's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 10

To be fairly honest, I don't mind that much about the wrapped games (or any home-made ports of PC software to the Mac). I do see why you wouldn't want wrapped games though. I also think the Mac Garden could also use Mac-Intel games that ARE abandonware (which at the moment, there have yet to be some).

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

Well, you could consider stuff like Raptor abandonware, even if it's fairly recent. Often a small developer disappears and all the software is gone from the Internet, etc. But we don't want any w@rez!

Wrapping games also uses extra disk space, which is rather tight right now.

MacWise's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 29

Do you want the site to be a museum, where only a select few know how to setup an emulator/have an old mac, and can play (probably around 1% of the population will know how to use an emulator)

Nope. If you remember, I was the one who said on the google group that the elitist attitude of the old mac garden was its demise.

Saying that 1% or so of the people know how to use an emulator is kind of a long shot, don't you think? Emulators are not that hard to use and people are not that stupid. Lazy, yes, but stupid, no.

don't forget that people on Windows and Linux (40% according to the stats) are visiting this website and looking to play a classic on their system. We do have to cater for them.

I respectfully disagree. A Linux guy comes and downloads Rise of the Triad from here. He has to download DOSBox for Linux and then shift things around before he can play the game. That's not catering; it's giving them extra work.

So, if you want this to be a multi-platform abandonware site, it's your call, but this site's userbase is mac-oriented. And if you want to distribute bundles, again, it's your call, but those things get old pretty fast.

I say give them the file, tell them where to get the emulator, and if you're worried about newbies, write them a tutorial.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Read the site mission statement, or what I remember as the mission statement from the old Macintosh Garden:

The preservation of Macintosh software considered as abandonware.

I'm already having concerns about the requests and uploads of software from the G4 PPC era and beyond, ie anything that requires OS9.

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

@bertyboy:

Please voice your concerns to Maedi ( cluejar@gmail.com ) or on the lists; maybe a list of rules needs to be made.

However, apps like Raptor: Air Superiority Fighter must certainly be allowed.

MacWise's picture
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However, apps like Raptor: Air Superiority Fighter must certainly be allowed

Yeah it should be allowed because it's a Mac game. But if what you're saying is Raptor should be made available bundled with sheepshaver or some other emulator, then I don't think so because it's the same thing: the emulator gets update and the bundle don't.

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

No, I meant Raptor should be allowed because it's out of production.

We're talking about what is abandonware here. Bundling is not part of that; if such a bundle if found, it should be split.

MacWise's picture
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We're talking about what is abandonware here. Bundling is not part of that; if such a bundle if found, it should be split.

Oooh... Sorry Balrog, I skimmed too fast over this thread. Everything you say is true.

I'm already having concerns about the requests and uploads of software from the G4 PPC era and beyond, ie anything that requires OS9.

Why do you say that bertyboy? Mac OS 9 is a dead platform; Steve Jobs even make a funeral for it. You can see a pic of it at (attempting)Mac Classic Gaming. The Mac PPC platform is been dead for years, too. It's abandonware. Sad but true.

bertyboy's picture
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Joined: 2009 Jun 14

well some of the software is either still sold today (Diablo II, etc), or the manufacturer still supports it, or sells it through their back catalog, maybe only as a digital download.

I'm not trying to exclude everything, but we do need a site mission statement, a single paragraph that sums up exactly what the site is aiming to achieve. We can support it with a set of rules, or guidelines if it helps.

Different manufacturers have different levels of support, compare Blizzard to Microsoft to Sierra or EA. So I'm not against all OS9 game software, but it should truly be abandonware, rather than just the platform it was originally designed for.

Balrog's picture
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Joined: 2009 Apr 24

Then comment, put a link to the purchase page, and we'll fix it up.

Maedi (Disabled)'s picture
Joined: 2009 Mar 21

We have unique sources, often with the following knowledge and we have a unique place/name, so please, keep it to what the back of the box says, if I may say so. Smile

Rest assured you're in good hands, (though I make no claim on ownership, though I do pay the bills Sad ). As MacWise said 'the elitist attitude of the old mac garden was its demise.' I know there are a lot of people on here from the old Garden, but I also think that it's all too easy to alienate new comers with old ideas. I always say, keep it open, and of course I don't want to Mac Garden to become a w@rez site.

To mix it with what can be dl:ed from 100/1000:s of other sites, could be to let the site 'fade into the grey haze of mediocracy'.

But to make it easy for Intel OS X users, with 'wrapped' games is no crime, honestly there aren't any other sites out there that cater for Mac users.

I was never actually endorsing 'wrapping' games for Linux and Windows users, more for Mac users. The guides section caters for all users.

I also think the Mac Garden could also use Mac-Intel games that ARE abandonware (which at the moment, there have yet to be some).

&

I'm already having concerns about the requests and uploads of software from the G4 PPC era and beyond, ie anything that requires OS9.

When I was resurrecting this website, the whole time I was thinking how good it would be to continue the abandonware legacy for generations to come, and to not just celebrate abandonware for our era, but give future generations access to abandonware of their time as well. I think the general consensus for this website could be to 'Celebrate Macintosh abandonware, whether it be 68k/PPC/Intel and give people the tools to play these games on their computers, with a focus towards the current OS X Macintosh platform'

Saying that 1% or so of the people know how to use an emulator is kind of a long shot, don't you think? Emulators are not that hard to use and people are not that stupid. Lazy, yes, but stupid, no.

Yeah people are lazy, that's what I should have said. If you actually want people to play these games, you need to forget about all the "no no's" happening under the hood. If you love the game, you have to let it go Wink

Honestly, I'm not that political, enjoy it!

Maedi's picture
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The 'wrapping' I´m referring to is when you put a non-mac game at this site. My thought and opinion is to keep to the Mac SWs strictly as the MS-DOS/Windows games are more than well covered by others. That´s this site´s and community´s strength and an identity worth keeping. The emulation of machines and system non-Apple is rather well catered for on the Macs, PPC and Intel, and the information and SW can be found elsewhere.
I´m not saying some SW is better than other SW. I think the Mac-only way is well worth keeping. There aren´t many of this kind nowadays and this is an argument for those who likes the quantity. There´s also easier, IMHO, to focus on part of the whole when it comes to support, knowledge and information, still IMHO. This cater for those supporting quality.
So, stick to the genuine Mac stuff, the emus can be found via the link section here. Those who likes to just run the goods; get a Mac environment, once done, which is easily done, you only have pick which stuff from here you want to run. And that´ll take alot more of your time than anything I´ve mentioned before here.
Cermon off.